Transitioning away from ability apps

[uncatastrophic]

proposed "don't have a master or exalted to get a master or exalted" system is very strange

would make my holyfire character unable to request holyfire for the sins of getting the holyfire master...

should at least remain appable for those cases

[crack connoisseur]

apps albeit a bad thing was the last thing preventing the game from becoming a full-blown pvp game

now the green name slop danger farmer characters born from 150 emporium posts are unshackled. thats scary. though i get the accelerationist approach so im all for it. its a good change because tautology is right. no one actually devved stuff based on what happened to their characters so it was all fugazi actually

[Penguin]

I like the idea. This transition helps make things feel more natural and takes some of the burden off the staff team, which is a good thing. And also, mythic should and will be rarer than ever, which will give PC something to thrive for and stand out. That said, there are two points I think are important to bring up, and I also have two solutions to help address these issues.

First, I believe some people are a bit concerned about the quality of RP potentially diminishing. I can see how some might feel that way, and I know some may maintain their quality, but we all know what's happened over the years with Medic, Holy, and so on where people just do meme-y post or lazy rps using them.  

For this, I propose the following:

A reprimand system where players can create "tickets" in a Discord chat, similar to how commands work now, where they can input logs and report people with questionable IC/OOC behavior. Admins can review the reports and, if necessary, issue warnings to allow the person to adjust their actions.

But Penguin, what about the ticket system? Yes, I’m aware it exists, but tickets often get lost, and while a record exists, not all of the staff team is aware of these incidents, making it harder to actually determine if this is a recurrent behavior. So, tracking them will be crucial both to prevent misuse of the system and to detect individuals who truly have questionable behavior.

But hey, don’t we have a report forum? We do, however, I think that should be reserved for more serious cases where there’s actual abuse or a clear violation of the rules. This system is more about maintaining the overall quality of RP. If someone wants to make meme characters or break immersion, that’s their choice, but something should be lost in the process, in this case, this privilege.

Secondly, I absolutely love that the Mentor system will be implemented and encouraged more than ever (please, lower the acceptance rate in holy and occult apps, thanks) ! That’s amazing, and I can’t wait to see the great sage of Mount Pavonis passing on barrier magic to their disciple to stand against the forces of evil or something like that, We love those stories. 

My only concern is how can encourage people to actually go out and give these skill away, mindfully, and while some of the current mentors are doing an excellent job, we don't want to have the instance of people passing these skill to their ooc friend or actively denying to rp with people just to not help them Icly, even when that is not their IC. (The system above might help with this.)

For this, I think the solution could be to create a dedicated channel and role on Discord where mentors can log who they've taught specific abilities to, or we could implement a form for them to fill out. Alternatively, the spell itself could trigger a notification in a Discord channel that only admins can see. This would provide a clear record of these instances. Mentors should be regularly reviewed, although nothing oppresive, to ensure that skills are being transferred with sufficient IC reasoning.

This will help reduce any potential bias that could arise and encourage mentors to roleplay more actively with their apprentices, take in more apprentices,, and so on.

With all of this said, I believe and hope that our community will truly use this new system responsibly and maintain the current quality of RP. Perhaps the issues I mentioned above won't be common, but I felt it was important to bring them up. The system is wonderful, and I can't wait to see it thrive!

Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

[uncatastrophic]

also these tiers on the current player guide are really silly and lead to "hm would i like magesight or supreme magma wave today..."

[Velkor]

Ok I'm finally awake and can give my full thoughts.

The system seems to be ok. I like it. Giving the people the ability to get a master and exalted sig by just playing and being active is good. Its something most people always wanted.

However. And here is probably my biggest gripe with the system as is. Do not limit characters to 1 master and 1 exalted or 2 masters.(not going to talk about mythics as being able to app for them still is a good thing.) There are lots of issues with this. 

It takes away player freedom. That's my biggest gripe. If I can only have 2 masters or 1 exalted and 1 master then I'm going to have to be very picky on which one I go for that fits my character and that I want.  Because now I know I cant dev for another one that fits my character.(assuming we cant dev for more I have yet to see if that's been confirmed or not. hint my major gripe with it. But based on what i saw it seems to be that mythic level sigs are the only ones we can app for.) 

Second. What about trees that don't have lots of sigs? Like earth. I see three earth sigs in the entire list. One I was already working towards. One i cant get cause i don't have metal unless we are ignoring the required trees which is a issue in itself since most of the exalted line as of the moment I'm looking at it are all occult/holy/energy for the most part. With a few others in there but those three being the main sigs in that list. The last sig that's earth I could get I don't want since it doesn't fit my character or the playstyle I am using. So a custom stance is the last option since no exalted moves and no other master moves that make sense. Which leads to my last issue.

Min maxing. Its going to happen with the new system. Even more so that the other one with the fact that we are limiting people. Now instead of someone picking a sig that fit their character through their roleplaying and development towards it now they can get one by just existing.  And with a limit attached it means people are going to go whatever fits their build over what fits their IC if they can. 

The ability to app for more master and exalted sigs should be allowed. It would be completely optional so others don't have to if they want a sig they can just use the ones at 30k and 100k and then if others want to get more than that or possibly get one sooner due to their roleplaying and dev then allow them to app.

[Nullia]

All I'm here to say is, with this change, we 100% need to have a full, exhaustive, entire, official, easily-accessible list of all the sigs available for browsing.
In its current state, such an accessible, non-interactive (with the community) change to sigs means that new players will grab whatever is on the list that they can, where there's a significant amount of things, not on the list. Experienced players gain an advantage of knowing the plethora of things not listed that may well be stronger.
It also gives confusion as, I don't actually know what tier something like Inheritance (I assume Exalted), or Arcane magic (I reasonably assume Mythic) is since they aren't listed on the referenced list of sigs. I am confused what, hypothetically, could be applied for.
I know Iceshadow has a decently comprehensive list in a rentry page somewhere. I'd suggest finding him for that and pushing out a legitimate, all-encompassing list.

[Velkor]

All I'm here to say is, with this change, we 100% need to have a full, exhaustive, entire, official, easily-accessible list of all the sigs available for browsing.
In its current state, such an accessible, non-interactive (with the community) change to sigs means that new players will grab whatever is on the list that they can, where there's a significant amount of things, not on the list. Experienced players gain an advantage of knowing the plethora of things not listed that may well be stronger.
It also gives confusion as, I don't actually know what tier something like Inheritance (I assume Exalted), or Arcane magic (I reasonably assume Mythic) is since they aren't listed on the referenced list of sigs. I am confused what, hypothetically, could be applied for.
I know Iceshadow has a decently comprehensive list in a rentry page somewhere. I'd suggest finding him for that and pushing out a legitimate, all-encompassing list.

From what i saw most of the sigs that were added to the player guide were directly copied from that very same list. Or at least a few of them were.

[RavenZxro]

Anyway here are some problems we'll hash out / that are open for discussion+food for thought,

1. Mythics not counting towards the #. This means that say, an already-powerful Death Mage (not naming anyone varrach) is going to gain an Exalted spell w this change
So they probably should contribute somehow

2. Whether it should be 'upgrade from a master to exalted' or 'gain an additional signature on top of your master'

3. Obvious imbalance issues, some spells will need to be buffed for their tier, some nerfed, etc

4. The EXP requirements/what the sweet spot might be, it's probably a little too high as is but I'll do some paper math later to figure it out

5. Which spells actually have lore/plot expectations (Mythic) and which don't

for 1. This may be more complicated but maybe a separation of mythics in categorizing them for utility/Combat/Other 

example of utility: Golemancy/wayfinding
example of other: Nephilim, maybe GHS?
example of combat: Barrier/Death magic/HARMONIC ATTUNEMENT

And if it's a utility or other they wont count as master or exalted, but if its a combat mythic, then it will be used in place of your exalted or in the case of the minor ones(I.e the rift/wayfinding spells, or maybe even skill spells master.) This should stop the op death mage not named in particular Varrach  from getting more power than they already have.

An example of what a normal person would have: Custom Stance(master)/Timespeed rush(exalted)
vs.
An example of what mister unnamed death mage would have: Soul Drain[Mythic -Master]/ Death Aura[Mythic - Exalted]

This could be a good idea, but idk it might be needlessly complicated.

2. Lowering the master options to just basically "You get a 3rd master token" but in different flavors i.e custom stance or just straight up giving them a 3rd token with some few exceptions (like magesight or one of the castbuffs) then allowing them to select an exalted that will provide something more than just a glorified 3rd token could be a good direction

3. I'll skip three, this honestly deserves an entirely separate discussion entirely

4.  for master, instead of 30, I'd bump it up to like 40k, and for exalted, something like 100k (this is around rpl 220, rpl 226 if you have no influence)

5. This is an admin discussion thing that could also be brought up for player discussion afterward

[uncatastrophic]

also: if the current list of signatures is to become largely "public", it would be nice if options could be made for trees that are lacking them: if you are say air/tempest/sound you are severely lacking non-stance options as far as i know

[dopamiin]

people are typing too many words its cool system. concerns about power and such are a little silly when (afaik) wars and the like are already roughly attempted to give 'fair' matchups

there still being a selection of app-only rp heavy ones kinda dismisses the concerns of character expression or whatever. like im going to be honest what does your character having supreme fire wave tell me other than theyre really really good and strong at controlling fire. letting people just earn cool things to show off and feel special is a good feeling and it reduces stress on both admins and players

anyone proposing anything being influence mandatory is a silly goose. im fully down for the current proposed thing where having influence accelerates the speed but i think by the time you hit the benchmarks in pure XP as a character that isnt faction aligned youve almost certaintly still made a noticable impact in the world. factions are just the fast pass way

when it comes to master + exalted vs 2xmaster OR exalted i dont have a super strong opinion im not a math nerd

would personally rather mythics stay outside the system for the most part, or they could vary based on power level - particularly strong mythics could also take up a slot, while more flavorful ones could not. case by case basis. i think it would be a little demotivating to some ppl to work towards a mythic and it only to end up as a sidegrade but im sure theres also super crazy stuff that absolutely shouldnt just be free on top. idk again im not a math nerd

tldr good change