Nerf Armed

[Volatile]

Gravity shuts down armed.
Sand shuts down armed.
Explosion shuts down armed.
Shadow shuts down armed.
Ice can also shut down armed.
Nature's vines and spore-flowers can make getting in close be punishing.
Energy has two knockbacks.
Cosmic has two knock backs.
Sound has a knockback and an AOE that is large and reduces AP.
Water has flood which is HUGE and wterbeam. Oh and mistform and cleanse.

There are many ways to get around armed. It's fine were it is. It beats some builds pretty hard. But other builds make meleers wanna roll on the floor and cry.

As someone who has played an armed character--- yes the burst is nice. But there are so many ways to punish you if your burst isn't high enough.

[Iceshadow]

what fucking thread is this and why am i just seeing it now

dont punish me for using armed, im a warrior, i use my armed skills

i dont even use sweeping cleave or double slash

okay, lemme actually post

cosmic is a fuck armed skill tree, if you dont have garuda, expect to be slowed in a massive punishing aoe

the only reason i get around some of this shit is because i have a space tp on lightning, without that, idk what the fuck i would be doing. armed is an extremely risky tree to be in with the presence of homing slows and kiting. just because some people /may/ abuse it, i dont think everyone should be punished for it, just make phantom strikes scale off of agi or something and move it to intermediate if that'll solve everything, i dont know if ill be able to spare the rpp for it... but, we can hope.

over 220 rpl btw, dunno if i can spare rpp xd

[Teemo]

Gravity shuts down armed.
Sand shuts down armed.
Explosion shuts down armed.
Shadow shuts down armed.
Ice can also shut down armed.
Nature's vines and spore-flowers can make getting in close be punishing.
Energy has two knockbacks.
Cosmic has two knock backs.
Sound has a knockback and an AOE that is large and reduces AP.
Water has flood which is HUGE and wterbeam. Oh and mistform and cleanse.

There are many ways to get around armed. It's fine were it is. It beats some builds pretty hard. But other builds make meleers wanna roll on the floor and cry.

As someone who has played an armed character--- yes the burst is nice. But there are so many ways to punish you if your burst isn't high enough.

Gravity shuts down everything, it's a disruption tree for kite mages. Admittedly, kite mages do counter melee so I agree with this.

Sand is more match up dependant than anything. You can pstrike out of their roots and you should have a defensive to block out sandstorm damage if you do manage to get caught without it up. If anything, it's more so earth bomb countering melees.

Explosion really doesn't counter armed. Sure, slows slow movement but most of your gap closing ability is in dash strike and space dash which are both slow immune now. Garuda also exists which is the stance most melees choose before buying an elemental stance if they choose to. You will always have access to switch to it if you're against someone with slows.

Again, shadow depends on what other trees they have. If they're a kite magi with shadow you have a problem. If you're against an unarmed shadow then it's more of a dps race, which you usually win. It's hard to shadow walk anything significant in armed except phantom strikes. If you have good reaction time you'll block 2 out of the 3 ticks of it because the first one is instant. Then you're stuck out of it for 30 seconds which is plenty of time for armed to cycle spells on you.

Armed users beat ice simply for how much damage you do compare to them. Escaping blizzard is incredibly easy and it's as simple as running away after they pop it.

Nature magi are typically sustain, which melee has always beat, simply because you apply constant pressure and out damage their heals. You don't give them time to breath for them to be able to use ingrain because it has a self root. Using ingrain when a melee is close to you just makes you take more damage.

Energy burst's damage is too low to even consider. If you dash into it you'll be pushed away and take at most 1-2k damage with no wasted cds. Baiting beams has always been the way to counter them. Fake an approach, wait for them to panic and punish after they self stun themselves. Then wail on them while it's on cd.

Cosmic has less aoe up time and range than occult/holy. Dash out of stair rain and reengage after it's gone. Bait out beams and you're golden. It's hard because if cosmic hits you, they hit hard. The tree itself is kinda bull shit for anybody.

Sound is in an incredibly weak spot. Melodic Repose's heal is almost unnoticeable. The 10% AP isn't much to worry about. It reduces your damage half the amount of benediction would, has a smaller range and does no damage. It can basically be ignored entirely. Sound really doesn't have many options except hope that the enemy approaches you stupidly.

Flood doesn't have double initial ticks as cosmic, holy and occult do. Run out when you see it being cast, take at most a few ticks and just wait it out. Water beam is a problem but again, you bait it. Mistform doesn't do much and it can be countered like all the barriers can. If they use it during your pstrikes? Run along with them as they float and wait for them to pop out before dropping an ability on them.

[Sword of Legend]

Explosion doesn't counter armed? Wtf? They have an aoe stun!

[Joshua]

This nigga said energy burst does 1-2k max....BOY THATS HOW WE KNOW YOU SCHLEEP

[Kazuki]

I mean you can walk out of energy burst. This man don't even got the facts.

[Hated]

teemo is talking all theory and assuming players will just do it like its as easy as saying it. not taking that post at face value, sorry.

[Kazuki]

Nature magi are typically sustain, which melee has always beat, simply because you apply constant pressure and out damage their heals. You don't give them time to breath for them to be able to use ingrain because it has a self root. Using ingrain when a melee is close to you just makes you take more damage.

Like this part here. I've yet to beat an actual Nature mage that has actually main the tree. You go off single trees instead of what other trees they can tie with. OBVIOUSLY the single tree has some counters and blah blah but if you're just going to focus on what melee can do to it, specifically armed, then you can't really have factual suggestions. I'm saying this because nature is a consistent tree hence sustain. Sure they can put pressure on them. But that's because they can have other trees to tie in with it.

The fact nature is the only tree right now with more than one tree kind of hurts melee so. Body blocking attacks for them and keeping them off if they kite well enough. The part where you say "Melee always beat Nature because it's a sustain tree" is so invalid my head wants to explode.

I want you to grab melee by itself and test it against every single tree before you make these claims again or have someone else prove it.

[Teemo]

This nigga said energy burst does 1-2k max....BOY THATS HOW WE KNOW YOU SCHLEEP

It ticks five times for 2.5 spell damage. 12.5 spell damage total at point-blank range. That's laughable for a 24s cooldown linear projectile. To put it into perspective, Sand Bolt and Metal Lance are 11 and 12 respectively. Both at the same speeds. Sand Bolt is a 3s cooldown, Metal Lance is at 12 and slows.

But it's alright, right? You don't get energy burst for the damage, you get it for the stun and drag! Energy burst's lingering stun for Spires was removed a long time ago. Energy burst isn't comboable anymore, it's just a slower earth bomb that does 4 more spell damage on a 24 second fucking cool down. And what's worse? That stun doesn't even exist anymore. See the stun stars on top of my head? There aren't any. You can run right out of the burst on the first tick. So I really doubt any of you have been actually hit by an energy burst because the energy magi know just how shit the spell really is.

Nature magi are typically sustain, which melee has always beat, simply because you apply constant pressure and out damage their heals. You don't give them time to breath for them to be able to use ingrain because it has a self root. Using ingrain when a melee is close to you just makes you take more damage.

Like this part here. I've yet to beat an actual Nature mage that has actually main the tree. You go off single trees instead of what other trees they can tie with. OBVIOUSLY the single tree has some counters and blah blah but if you're just going to focus on what melee can do to it, specifically armed, then you can't really have factual suggestions. I'm saying this because nature is a consistent tree hence sustain. Sure they can put pressure on them. But that's because they can have other trees to tie in with it.

The fact nature is the only tree right now with more than one tree kind of hurts melee so. Body blocking attacks for them and keeping them off if they kite well enough. The part where you say "Melee always beat Nature because it's a sustain tree" is so invalid my head wants to explode.

I want you to grab melee by itself and test it against every single tree before you make these claims again or have someone else prove it.

Sure, let me invest in an end-game melee and fight at least one user of every tree in the game with the exact same base stats and skill as me. It's not happening. I don't know how you can tell me to make factual suggestions when your paragraph starts with a completely anecdotal statement. You say I fail to account for the other trees nature can have, yet nowhere in your post did you mention that armed users have just the same opportunity to tie with other trees. Even more so now that they have to spend only 60 RPP on their core spells and have the option to buy a stance for any other tree in the game.

You get Dash Strike, a base stance, Sweeping Cleave, Phantom Strikes and Powersmash on the new changelog. Four spells and a toggle for 65 RPP. You have 135-155 to spend however you like. Now let's see what nature gets for the same amount. 

Earth Attunement - 15, 5 Vit
Spores - 25, Shoots out five homing projectiles that do one spell damage each. This doesn't include blocking with is incredibly easy to do considering it's a charge spell.
Ingrain - 20, 15 Spell Damage heal with a one-second self-root.
Nature's Command - 10, Vines. Don't know what else to say about them.
Yggdrasil - 10, 11 ticks of healing at 2.4 each with a 5-second start-up. 26.4 in total on a 55-second cooldown in a five-tile radius. It doesn't o any damage or has any additional effects. Your enemy can stand near it all they want.
Deadly Bloom - 15,  I couldn't afford it on my 30 y/o blank because you only get 80 RPP now, but everyone knows this spell is good. Puts a flower on the ground, shoots slowing projectiles. 
Forest Form - 10, 20 VIT, 10% Nature Power

I went a little over 65 RPP but it's only 40 more so no biggie. How many spells do I have? Spores, Ingrain, Vines, Ygg, Deadly Bloom, Aura. For forty-five more RPP I got 5 spells compared to Armed's four. Ingrain's healing can be done in any of armed's 10-second cd spells. Keep in mind that all the heals scale off power which nature lacks because their aura gives elemental power. 15 SD might sound a lot but their only source of power are other trees.

Oh, and all of this doesn't include earth bomb or rock wall, the only two good basic spells in earth right now. And since we're comparing it to armed let's pick then up because anti-melee. 125 RPP

Dash Strike - 20, 5 Spell Damage 4 CD 12 Tile Gap closer.
Sweeping Cleave - 10, 12 Spell Damage, 10 Second CD. Two tile teleport instead of stepcast if too far. If too close has kinda jank hitbox and doesn't blink.
Phantom Strikes - 15, 4.5 Spell Damage, 3 hits, 13.5 in total. Auto hit homing. Blinks you to the enemy if it doesn't break and lasts longer than GCD meaning you can use another spell at the end. Can also be used while rooted or timed to dodge skill shots. Also knocks away from the direction it blinks to.
Garuda - 5, 20 AGI. Q that grants Slow Immunity for 6 seconds. The tooltip says 10, changelog says 8. Probably supposed to be 8.
Power Smash - 15, 13 Spell Damage. Pretty much always hits your enemy if you're within four tiles of them. 8-9 second slow.

Just compare their damage, cooldown, cost and effects. With full builds without hiddens? Armed will win if you aren't a monkey imo. Nature needs its exalted to even compete as a tree. They need time to set up yggrasil and deadly bloom. Melees should be on their ass the moment the RPB starts. You'll pull so far ahead for them to even ingrain and ygg their way back up. It's stupid how a tree needs exalted hiddens to live. CT and Springs Bloom are their only countermeasures to not instantly get bumrushed.

[Hated]

that looks like a brownshirt with only 80 power, not a good subject lol.