Bring back PC Monsters! (Like Eternia 1?)

[Charon]

Hello yes, I hope everyone is having a good day. This thread is a simple suggestion. . .and also a glaring concern that I have seen while playing this game.
Monster characters: You can now create them! Yes! You can now enjoy them! Yes, but why are they treated as EC characters rather than PC? I am a bit confused. Is Esshar lacking in villains? That doesn't seem to be the case, but Monsters specifically seem. . .rather dull in development and locked in a very weird and gray area. More oft than not they also feel very fodder and if they aren't providing good people with Dev then they are not interesting. 

This I feel has created a problem where Monster characters exist briefly, and then immediately get deleted after someone has played them for a week or two. Now as a game that relies heavily on dev. I can see the appeal of having an actual class of people that are monsters, or deemed as such by society sure. As a player that would like to be surrounded by other players intent on building a character and community this seems to provide a rather shallow, and dangerous dynamic of people existing for short periods of time and then kicking said characters into space. Making it fairly complicated to really dev or even antagonize as a character when a player might only exist for a few days. Yes a small and dedicated group exists that makes monsters feel like they can actually dev and work towards goals but overall. . . .there is definitely a problem.

Granted I am not by any means a high profile character as a monster. I just simply enjoy the RP and frankly find it a tad more interesting and puts me in a position where lore has to be learned, and dev for things can be a bit more twisted or non typical so it makes me as a writer enjoy this challenge immensely. 

Sorry for the long paragraphs. . . but yeah. 

Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated! 
Let monsters exist outside of dev fodder!

[Matthew]

in E1 i feel like yokai also were super shitty and unfun to play for the most part, but the difference was that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. the fact that any gremlin had the potential to become a demi-god with a sick ass demon sword was actually pretty cool, and super spooky when it did happen. it gave each growing yokai the feeling of them being a festering wound on the world, with a real sense of urgency in taking them down. that was really cool in my opinion!

E3 monsters aren't designed to have progression like that, they're specifically meant to start out strong with the tools to be small-time antagonists and not progress much beyond that. which is.. cool, i guess. it serves it's own purpose, and it's obviously a different thing going on with it's own design philosophy. but man, i wish there was something like yokai again. probably to exist separately from monsters, but yeah.

[Charon]

in E1 i feel like yokai also were super shitty and unfun to play for the most part, but the difference was that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. the fact that any gremlin had the potential to become a demi-god with a sick ass demon sword was actually pretty cool, and super spooky when it did happen. it gave each growing yokai the feeling of them being a festering wound on the world, with a real sense of urgency in taking them down. that was really cool in my opinion!  . . . . . . .

I agree, a blend of that would have made for more interesting characters. Long term characters. Yokai were miserable to play at the start but their was a path of evolution, and growth. . .their was some goal to get strong! To create something unique and different. That sense of 'wow if we let them grow too much they will be a problem. . .' has been in large part replaced by 'I'm not gonna worry too much this character wont exist in a week, so thanks for the dev.' 

This is part of the problem, though it can be fixed with careful dev. Maybe even a general lowering of the RPL gains at the beginning (from 150 to I believe the yokai started off at 50?)

[Whatever]

I think E3 having monsters is better than not. But I think they are in a really depressing place right now where even the thread detailing them encourages you to pursue them like real characters, but they are treated like second class experiences. I'm hardly saying Nethradin should be the new normal and everyone should be able to spawn at 170/180 free of charge with no effort and have all the benefits of a normal character.

But if there was a kind of side-grade monster that could build themselves up from the bottom in exchange for full player character status... Why not add that?

[ScarecrowVT]

Gonna be real.. I don't think monsters in the Mire should be public. Even I don't think I should have access too it publicly coming back. It should be app only or a RB option from specific RPLs. They are event characters but having everyone have access to them is bad as not everyone is a competent writer. I'm sorry. No one wanted to say this but I'm saying it because it needs to be. I'll probably RB my Mire just cause I don't feel like I'm a competent enough writer for it.

[Theori]

Demons have been present in the first two eras of E3 and have either completely overwhelmed the rest of the playerbase in numbers or else quickly devolved into a mess of salt and spite when things stopped going entirely their way. I think, so far as antag-by-design races go, the Shadowmire PCs have been the strongest introduced, but please also remember they were revealed during the Academy arc's very beginning, when a good amount of the playerbase were playing children.

I think its more or less an inevitability that the Shadowmire (especially as it becomes more organised) is taking steps to leave this EC state and become more of an actual faction, but I don't think its hit that critical mass where monsters need strong nerfs and get given PC status quite yet.

[Mouse]

the way monsters exist right now is, in my opinion, awkward. they're meant to be throwaways who exist for a few days, weeks, etc etc, and then die off in a blaze of glory giving those around them good dev. for the most part - hey, this happens. there's very few times i think monsters die off in depressing or really lame ways, and in general, i think they've done their job excellently.

the problem them, is that in doing this job, they've also become something else. the mire, in general, has become something else. giving them a spawn point and a hub to congregate in, encouraging events with nyx and setting up leadership roles has turned them from roving monsters meant to be combatants in the wild to make things dangerous.. and has turned them into a faction proper. they raid, get raided, have faction benefits(for the most part) - but they're not treated as real PCs, because they weren't intended to be. which leaves us off in this strange half limbo.

you have to fight cap 1s because you're meant to be more aggressive. but the mire can get raided. you have very powerful racial abilities to help you along(n-neffwadin..). but you also don't get other benefits because the mire exists and you have a place to hide. 

it, in my opinion, makes monsters very awkward to handle. not letting them in cities? that's fine. its meant to not make them normalized - the problem is that the mire, in general, has already normalized then. normal players can walk in and make deals and join the 'faction' that is the mire. other factions can raid them and attack them, normalizing the idea that this is a real, honest place where monsters exist.

and maybe it's not the worst thing for them to be here and doing this, but it sure makes monsters, in general, feel.. very strange. they're PCs who aren't getting the same treatment or benefits as other PCs, and that's fine, that's dandy, that's cool, but it puts a lot of them in a really strange limbo of existence where nobody is sure what they can do, what they can't do, if the mire is a place where certain faction benefits exist, if they can be diplomatic, etc etc. the death of xian, who pushed this ideal forwards(not necessarily a bad thing!) only makes it even more confusing to a lot of people. with monsters getting very powerful racial abilities and being intended to be roaming creatures that make the world map stronger.. why are they basically just a faction now, at this point? why, if they're a faction, are they still so potentially powerful? why are they not allowed to do stuff other PCs are?

of course, there's nothing inherently WRONG with monsters existing this way. eventually people will get over it. but its going to make them and, imo, the rest of the world feel strange when creatures designed to be overpowered are allowed to exist just like the rest of the world.

the way to fix monsters, imo, is pretty simple

A: nerf their racials and establish the mire as a proper, pretty faction. lower the starting RPL of all monsters down to normal RB levels. remove the BIG ONES and give them a neutral spawn(maybe just nethradin? if at all?). make them normal PCs who function and exist in the mire as their faction

or

B: keep them as is, maybe even buff them, but make them more how they were originally intended: dangerous, high risk fighters who serve for dev. delete the mire, or make it known its not a faction and doesn't get faction benefits, and then make them serve entirely as ECs instead of this half EC half PC hybrid they currently are.

or

C: keep them as is, and let people naturally adjust to them over time.

personally? i think they're not a huge deal as is and people get extremely emotional over being told they're not a "real" PC when playing the mire. and that people also get way too upset over the mire getting certain benefits when they're actively raiding and attacking them.

monsters are probably fine.

but don't let this distract you about nethradin racials-

[Laemor]

My thoughts based on what was suggested my mouse?

Buff monsters further, (If you really want them to be EC status.) Force a rule of.

Aggro only; first encounter! (So teens or unaware adults don't find themselves getting perm'd. By occly not understanding how powerful the creature they face, really is. Since they're meant to be sporadic, etc. 2nd encounter + can be w.e. the two decide.

Or? Nerf and just turn them into a normal faction without any advantageous benefits above other factions, beyond what they have the capacity to dev for. Being creatures of the night! The racial trees alone seem to serve as a notch about the others. Depending on builds.

[Charon]

Wow alot more people feel a way about this than I thought. While I was knowledgeable that monsters were fairly 'new' then I wasn't aware of how new. @Theori so thank you for that information.

I wholeheartedly agree with @Whatever that there should be a side monster/side character that is not necessarily 'good' but that can have all the benefits and pursue the same things as PC which is why I think the Mire itself is a great option for that.

@Scarecrow, I feel monsters should be public. Like any other character writing a very well written story takes time and learning. Sometimes there are rough bumps and with monsters you really have to put in work to learn the lore QUICKLY or get left behind to some extent.

@Mouse great points and yes monsters do exist in a very awkward and throwaway state at the moment. I do agree that if EC was the intent behind them then as you said.

A. Nerf the racials, establish the Mire as an actual PROPER faction (I think the Mire is working on that Icly), remove the big monsters and give them a neutral starting space. The Dreadwoods is very big ICLY no?

B. I don't agree with deleting the Mire, I feel alot of lore, thought, sweat, and tears has been put into making the Mire happen and that would be an incredible disservice and slap to the face of all the people that took the time to create and make the Mire. I would say separate the two, create the Mire as a standard and evil faction, and create a "Monster rando spawn" as a different option during character creation. For Mire people give them the status of PC players, for Monster Rando give them Buffs. Make them threatening, short of 200 or even in some instances make them 200 (APP For) then give them those big scary moves and create that enviornment of "Oh we have to be careful in the desert because this monster boss is roaming and this is their land."

C. I also kind of disagree, this awkward limbo stage isn't good for anyone especially writers which we all are, in terms of developing and creating unique and interesting stories. Short term sure, long term nobody benefits beyond a select few and when the pool of 'quick ideas' runs out you have very dry, very stale, and meme quality things occurring.

[Math]

let me play a yokai and you guys will immediately regret wanting monster pcs