Suggested changes to Mana Costs and Mana Regen

[Madsen]

This is my own opinion on the matter and it does not in any way reflect the opinions of the Staff team or Chance, I merely want to open it to discussion whether we should consider making some changes to Mana while also posting what my own suggestions are.

Madsen's proposed changes to Mana Regen & Spell Costs
Ever felt like you were running low on Mana while fighting a tense 1on1 battle that wasn't against Absorption? No, of course you haven't.

The overall purpose of these changes is to remove the free mana regained from using a GCD or Invul spell, while also removing any spells which causes infinite mana to occur (I.e. 0 mana cost GCD spells.)
The desired effect would be for all Agility based build to run out of mana when spamming their spells, hopefully creating more scenarios where Mana Regeneration (either via the stat or a spell/aura) matters.

Logic:
* We change Mana Regen to be more rewarding for people who invest into Mana Capacity, while keeping it equal to what it is now for people who don't invest into it.
* We change every buff and spell from 0-10 mana to a flat 15 mana cost, this provides an actual downside to using buffs and spells that isn't immediately countered by passive Mana Regen during GCD (Unless the player invests into Mana! Which is fine).
** GCDE spells can remain lower than 15.
* All 0 mana cost spells are no longer 0 mana cost, as having a single spell on your bar with 0 mana cost and GCD will provide you with +8 to +12 mana per click of the spell due to GCD, virtually making your mana infinite when combined with general low mana costs.
* This would also open the door for the potential of adding Mana Regeneration onto items that can be equipped (Armor, weapon etc.), Food items of all sorts, different blessings via Faith/Faes/Cosmic users, Potions etc.

Mana Regen
Change to: 4% of your maximum mana is regenerated every tick instead of a flat 6.

On average this means anyone with 156 mana capacity (RPL 200 with no points into mana) will regenerate 6.24 mana per tick (rounded down to 6), the same as the current system, however anyone who spends additional points into mana will begin to receive an increased mana regeneration. (For example 163 mana capacity would set you to 7 mana per tick, 188 sets you to 8 mana per tick etc.)

Naturally this change to mana regen would provide newer players with a lower mana regen compared to now, however I think it is completely fine that you gain more mana regen as you level up and approach rpl 200.

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Faeborne
- Nemea Aurora: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.

Demon
- Black Claw: Increase mana cost from 0 to 10
- Demon Overdrive: Increase mana cost from 0 to 10

Cambion
- Black Claw: Increase mana cost from 0 to 10

Teraphim
- Essence Strike: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Crystal Heart: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.

Fairy
- Crystal Heart: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.
- Polymorph: Re-add the spell and give it a 15 mana cost <3

Beastkin
- Feral Swipes: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.
- Wild Nature: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10. (The spell may be GCDE, but the other races have a mana cost of 10 on their temporary buffs.)

Nephilim
- (All) Flashbeam: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- True Counter (All): Increase mana cost from 1 to 15.

Siren
No changes, their buff is not GCD.

Ursidae
No changes, their buff is not GCD.

Greathive
No changes.

Human
No changes, they do not have spells.

Faceless
No changes.

Wind
- Whims of Wind: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- WindCutter: Decrease mana cost from 20 to 15.
- Flurry: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Twister: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Aera: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.
- Shockwave: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Tempest
- Aeolian Cascade: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Galeburst: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.
- Tempestine Guard: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.

Lightning
- Bolt: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Shock: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Lightning Trap: Decrease mana cost from 15 to 10.
- Lightning Embodiment: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Lightning Burst: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.

Sound
- Sound Strike: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Sound Burst: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Cascade: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Sonar Cacophony: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15 or make the spell GCDE.
- Boom Burst: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.

Water
- Bubble Blast: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Water Beam: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Tidal Wave: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Mist
- Mist Form: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Steam Burst: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Scald: Decrease mana cost from 20 to 15.
- Advection: Increase mana cost from 0 to 5.

Wellspring
- Pond: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Cleanse: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.
- Aquatic Flow: Increase mana cost from 0 to 20.
- Sanctuary: Decrease mana cost from 30 to 25.

Ice
- Field of Ice: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Glacial Lance: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Winter's Talon: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Ice Spike Barrage: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Ice Flurry: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Blizzard: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Ice Avalanche: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Glacier: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Earth
- Earth Bomb: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Spike: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Mudslide: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Rock Wall: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Spike Trap: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15 or make the spell GCDE.
- Earthquake: Increase mana cost from 15 to 25.

Sand
- Golden Bolt: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Barrier of Sand: Increase mana cost from 10 to 25.
- Sandstorm: Decrease mana cost from 20 to 15.
- Quicksand: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Sand Bomb: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.

Crystal
- Shardshot: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Crystal Wall: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Formation of Crystals: Increase mana cost from 15 to 25.
- Prismatic Pillars: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Metal
- Silver Javelin: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Iron Grip: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Sword of Heaven: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Fire
- Fireball: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Fire Stream: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Blazing Wave: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Overheat: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Flame Slide: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Sear: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Great Fire Wave: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Scorch: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Lion Fire Barrage: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Explosion
- Bang: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Inferno: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Impact Cannon: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Pyroclasm: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Explosive Minefield: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Cinderflare: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Magma
- Volcanic Geyser: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Lava Pool: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Volcanic Barrier: Increase mana cost from 10 to 35.
- Magma Fist: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15. Remove the ability to use other spells and dash during the duration of Magma Fist, make it cancel the spell instead.
- Volcanic Eruption: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Plasma
- Plasma Strike: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Sparkbomb: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Tesla: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Plasma Overcharge: Decrease mana cost from 15 to 10.
- Plasma Leap: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.

Energy
- Energy Constriction: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Force Wave: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Energy Burst: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Energy Beam: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Rapidfire: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Spiral Bomb: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Deflecting Palm: Increase mana cost from 0 to 35.

Cosmic
- Meteor Dash: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Invigorate: No changes.
- Nova Ray: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Star Rain: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Stardust Explosion: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.

Absorption
- Null Ray: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
The spells should probably steal less mana than they currently do.

Holy
- Light Orb: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Mend: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Smite: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Lifebomb: Increase mana cost from 0 to 25.
- Judgement Beam: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Occult
- Shadow Ball: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Drain Life: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Curse: Increase mana cost from 10 to 25.
- Black Binding: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Shadow Cannon: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Nature
- Rolling Vines: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Spores: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Yggdrasil: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Deadly Bloom: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Ingrain: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.

Blood
- Blood Siphon: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Scarlet Darts: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Blood Sacrifice: Increase mana cost from 0 to 20.
- Blood Miasma: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Blood Vapor: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Scarlet Circle: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.
- Severance: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.

Bone
- Skeletal Lance: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Reform: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Spearing Bone Drill: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Ivory Rupture: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Ribcage: Increase mana cost from 15 to 30.

Poison
- Poison Darts: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Infection: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Smog: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Noxious Cloud: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Acid Spray: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Venomous Vortex: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Styx: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.

Illusion
- Distort: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Black Mirage: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Spatial Misdirection: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Hypnosis: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.

Gravity
- Compression: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Push: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Fall: The Weight of 30x Gravity: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Telekinesis: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.

Time
- Spheres of Decay: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Time Beam: Increase mana cost from 15 to 20.
- Wither: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Wound Reversal: Reduce mana regeneration from 1x Spell power to 0.05x Spell power (Half of invigorate)

Shadow
- Shadow Claw: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Shadow Walk: Increase mana cost from 10 to 30.
- Shadow Dive: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Eviscerate: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Void Cutter: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.

Light
- Prism Beam: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Lightspeed Kick: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.

Armed
- Double Slash: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Sweeping Cleave: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Fatal Strike: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Galeforce: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Phantom Strike: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Power Smash: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Quickdraw: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.
- Precision Slash: Increase mana cost from 0 to 15.

Unarmed
- Flying Kick: Increase mana cost from 5 to 15.
- Throw: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Titan Fist: Decrease mana cost from 15 to 10.
- Axe Kick: Increase mana cost from 5 to 10.
- Assault: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Lariat: Increase mana cost from 10 to 15.
- Fury Fist: Increase mana cost from 10 to 20.
- Iron Body: Increase mana cost from 0 to 25.

Maybe armed and unarmed should remain a low-mana cost class? Alternatively their spells can just cost mana but not require mana to be used- I.e. if they get OOM, they can still swing their sword/fist/feet around though at the cost of being unable to cast spells for that much longer.
Or they can just be nerfed like the rest, since at the moment they also have infinite mana.

Summoning
- Link Transposition: Increase mana cost from 0 to 10.
- Spirit Meld: Increase mana cost from 0 to 30.

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For me, even if I reduce my GCD to 1s instead of 2s with Power Style, I still cannot run out of mana or even begin to:


Strawpoll: How often do you run out of mana in an RPB? The poll is still open, so feel free to vote!
https://strawpoll.com/polls/poy9WwLbOgJ

Current results with 31 votes as of { Mar 21, 2023 [18:51:21] CST } according to the in-game command /servertime:

 
This doesn't necessarily reflect the entire Playerbase's experience with so few votes, and quite a few of them voted out of fear of mana changes, however with a solid 75% of the playerbase agreeing that it is at least rare to go OOM (and 50% saying it never happens), a change should be considered in my opinion.

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I am well aware that the issue may still persist even by increasing all mana costs in the game, however we won't know without trying.

I understand that a sudden change like this would shift the balance of the current important characters, however try and ignore that part for now and focus solely on what would work best for the game for the future once everyone has adjusted to it.

And naturally if it turns out that this change has a bigger impact than desired, then it can be toned down accordingly when the time comes.

What do you think?

[ratqueen]

mana costs were just lowered a few months ago because they were too high, and most of these numbers are higher than the old ones

edit; for clarity, not saying they shouldn't be bumped up, just not this high probably.

[Madsen]

mana costs were just lowered a few months ago because they were too high, and most of these numbers are higher than the old ones

My changes include an update to Mana Regeneration to make Mana Capacity more useful- And I also think that the possibility of going OOM is a good thing, alongside with adding in IC ways to get around it- Whether it be potions meant to be used for war, Mana Regen blessings (faith/fae), Mana Regen enchantments from Artificers, or special/difficult to make food items. Or even spells such as Time Reversal or Invigorate.

I also don't personally believe the change to lower mana costs was good, as you can probably gather by this thread's existence.

In my ideal world players would begin to at least consider adding +manacapacity to their items instead of ignoring it completely.

---

But ignoring my specific changes, these are mere suggestions to paint a picture of what I would consider ideal- I am more interested in whether you think Mana & Mana Regen is in a good place or not?

Because I think it is in a really bad place when there doesn't even exist an enchantment for the stat, and nobody is complaining about it missing.

[Chance]

Specifically, what we could do is lower the rate of MP regen (which was increased some months back, maybe too much). And fix the spells that lack an MP cost, as you've so helpfully listed here!

[Dreamspeaker]

I'll probably read this more in-depth later, but running out of mana is the absolute worst and should never be encouraged as a mechanic IMO. Nothing more whacky than just standing there like a deer about to be hit staring at headlights on a road in an active RPB.

It's just awful all around. I don't want to go back to the days when it was very much possible to run out of mana.

[Iotasilver]

My idea: Invulns should have high, high mana costs. 0 mana spells shouldn't cost 0 mana. MP regen should be brought down a bit.

But also, running out of mana isn't really that fun. I don't really have any ideas on how to fix that.

[MalfGuy2]

Most of the no- or low-Mana cost spells appear to already be somewhat balanced around a low-cost style or other supporting function to most of their spell tree, but am not against raising everything to a minimum of 5 Mana.

Nerfing the current vectorial nature of Mana Regen into a small %-scalar form does make the most sense.

[Enginseer-42]

If we're going to bring OOM back, perhaps something to keep it from being totally crippling but still a severe disadvantage? If you go OOM you can still cast but it reduces the damage of any spell where you can't 'afford' the mana cost by a significant amount?

It's not fun being able to do nothing at all.

[radio]

running out of mana isn't fun, i agree with that entirely
though, certain archetypes should be able to run out of mana rather than extend things forever, and things like invulns should probably cost more

that said, i don't think mana is/was an unpopular addition on items, nor an ignored stat. the issue is that it was taken for the DR rather than the mana itself
we dont want to go back to the mana stacking meta, that shit sucked
you'd have to separate the stats if you want people to put mana on items and have it stick ( if u dont want it to be annoying as hell to fight )

[ratqueen]

i think it should be possible to run out of mana versus an aggressive and skillful absorption user, but speaking from several months of experience playing a character whose playstyle revolved around getting my opponent to OOM, it is an irrevocable death sentence—if you run out, you're almost guaranteed to be dead unless you have wound reversal or invigorate. it should be seen as basically a second actual healthbar.

i think striking a balance where it's possible to OOM against a skillful absorption player but not very likely otherwise is probably for the best.