Judges and Trials; a Pillar of Justice

[Theori]

Okay, so here are my thoughts on a solution for a couple of problems.
The problems are thus:

• Rushed Executions
  
• Lack of real felt importance of the Church and Clergy
  
• Imprisoned players upset at the current farce of a justice system.
  

Let me preface this by saying that I'm making this thread with no hostility.

Right now, the First Light has a lot of power and authority. One aspect of this are their abilities to arrest, imprison, and judge those involved in the former two cases. A high ranking member of the First Light (say for example an Exarch) is currently quite literally Judge, Jury and Executioner. Now, while this isn't necessarily a horrible, terrible very bad thing, we have a perfectly good group that could decentralise a little of that power: The Church.

Right now there's a relatively widespread (from what I've seen) opinion that the Church is an organisation that in a word is boring. Some of the remaining clergymember's players are trying to fix that, which is good! However, they could use a little help in that matter, so I come now to the meat of my proposal. It is thus: introduce criminal trials for Major or above crimes. Minor crimes are usually relatively short stints in prison, so it hardly needs to have significant discussion of punishment. Major crimes, however, carry harsh penalties that can leave prisoners with very little chance for RP for extended periods of time without much in the way of significant thought behind decisions. So, have trials for them.

Trials in this context wouldn't include lawyers -because lets be real, we don't want to get too complicated. Instead it would be the arresting member of the First Light (or appointed substitute, such as an Exarch) against the Accused, with both arguing their cases and a Judge delivering a sentence based on the situation. Trials could also be made open to the public if particularly important, such as a trial where execution is to be argued. Clergy ranking Bishop or above would serve as judges -a role they're already given in established canon, if not in practicality. There's actually a room that'd be pretty fitting for a courtroom in the Church, or alternately a Courthouse could be added in the planned map changes coming soon.

So, this might be extra work. Why do I think its merited?

Having one organisation handling both arresting and sentencing criminals can be rough, and not allow for much in the way of interesting RP. Having the Church act as Judges would allow scenarios where, for example, an Exarch pushes for a harsh sentence whilst the Judge disagrees, leading to interpersonal conflict that is unlikely to be legally settled through combat. Or perhaps a captured criminal's allies ambush a group of First Light escorting him/her to the courthouse? Captured, significant antagonists get interesting roleplay prior to their death. Antagonists in general get at least the illusion of agency of the way they go out, rather than a capture and quiet, execution at the hands of the same person or group.

I think its worth making a proper addition, but as always, I encourage other opinions, agreeing or disagreeing, so go ahead and leave some feedback!

[Magik]

Bishop is pretty high up the food chain, so I don't think that would help to much for the church in practice. Not the majority.

Court room stuff also kinda blows and would be repetitive, but I think a priest+ being the one to ultimately pass judgement would be pretty important, allow time for antagonists to form an escape attempt and maybe get the executions to chill a bit.

[Avee]

Whilst I feel something like this is a genuine good idea, it has a few issues.

Players are generally, and correctly, in it for themselves. The games very design encourages it. It's not a huge deal, it's just the nature of things. Any attempt at making an adequate judicial system would require levels of RP that, quite frankly, I don't feel we have in our current community. Every time it's been attempted in the past, it's turned into something of a cringefest. (See - Rape in Avalon : 1443AC)

Something like this couldn't be implemented properly, because it's extremely obvious when someone is guilty, and the sheer amount of witness testimony would be absurd. It would do little beyond extending the death scene of a character (by days) or wind up releasing them, so they could immediately go back out and do what they were doing previously, breaking the law and all other manner of degeneracy, only for the thing to repeat itself. (Players -must- repeat these actions in order to get their development. It's just the nature of the game.)

It would however allow for these antagonist factions to have time to free their comrades, and lead to more interesting arcs for characters. (This is a good thing.) The only problem with it, is players would -still- perform 'street-justice' and kill their enemies on the spot. This would need to be punishable by death, in order to prevent the actions from taking place, which would only serve to infuriate players.

This would also not apply to non-osronan factions, resulting in even more fury.

Sorry man, love you, but I don't think it would work out.

Everyone sucks but me fuck the police!

[Lorelai]

Giving players punishment for killing in street-justice is good. It means if you take the law into your own hands you're a criminal. Law enforcement should be reserved for law enforcers, not anyone and everyone.

And if people get mad they didnt rely on law enforcement, then they might start to capture more people or rely on said law enforcement. Bounty Hunters get opportunities this way and people who go maverick will actually be maverick instead of unofficial lawman #20, please input this idea, it is good for the game and pb at large

[Theori]

Whilst I feel something like this is a genuine good idea, it has a few issues....

Thanks for the critique! I'd like to try and address a bit of it.

I'm not suggesting this for the once-in-a-blue-moon scenario where a person manages to successfully get themselves proven falsely innocent. No, this is a suggestion more so that Jim McPoordecision who got stupidly involved in a low level of a terrorist organisation and felt trapped in it afterwards to convince a Judge -drawn from the Faith, who ideally should hold forgiveness and redemption as an ideal- that a couple of years in prison is a better sentence than execution.

Its there so the First Light doesn't hold essentially all of the authority in criminal justice like they current so, so far as I'm aware, because having one group control every stage of the process prevents interesting interpersonal conflict that could overwise blossom. Agreed on it granting more time for freeing comrades, and yes that is a good thing. People WOULD probably go for street-justice, as you say. Honestly, this is already technically illegal under Vigilantism for non-Law Enforcement affiliated individuals, and illegal for City Watch/First Light as Unauthorised Execution, a Capital crime by Osronan law; so its actually already technically punishable by death. This could potentially be another aspect of Judges -they being required to sign a.... 'Writ of Summary Execution' or something, where an individual considered too dangerous to be exclusively taken alive can be executed on the spot. People who straight up kill on cap without going through the right channels deserve for that to have consequences, I'd say, if only because that creates more interesting roleplay.

Non-Osronan factions are still, thus far, Essharan factions, and I'd imagine that Major/Capital crimes are the same across the board, so it would still affect them. Hell, that there is a potential point of conflict; Osronan courts muscling in on relatively autonomous villages.

I'm not even that fussed on Courtrooms, honestly, I just want to give the Church a little more to do (Bishops are a rank above priest, Magik, so its not really that high up, three of roughly five). If there's a Bishop consulted for a ruling in the prison itself, I'm cool with that, so long as that Judge is there. Hope I've made a decent rebuttal of some of your point, still love you etc. And I do take critique as a positive thing!

[Detective100]

Giving players punishment for killing in street-justice is good. It means if you take the law into your own hands you're a criminal. Law enforcement should be reserved for law enforcers, not anyone and everyone.

And if people get mad they didnt rely on law enforcement, then they might start to capture more people or rely on said law enforcement. Bounty Hunters get opportunities this way and people who go maverick will actually be maverick instead of unofficial lawman #20, please input this idea, it is good for the game and pb at large

I think I should speak up by writing my previous character's story, to set as an example of how the current situation with order being judge, jury, and executioner can get out of hand.

So, to start things off: I was the one that made Vincenzo Dilinger- A man who is prone to enjoying chaos and anarchy, and ended up joining the syndicate because of it.

Eventually, the raid happened, where he was found among the other syndicates, and fought one of the knights to attempt his escape, temporarily injuring her in the process (temp injury to a knight when refusing arrest.)

Later down the line, he attempted to buddy up with the moonfall villagers without much success- Or at least, not enough time before being found by multiple knights out in the open, which he decided to try and come willingly to settle matters peacefully.

So, let's tally up his crimes here for a moment:
Joined the syndicate, physical resist of an arrest, and for being a defector from the city watch (Though I should point out, he was nothing but a rookie there, not even a year in before the raid).

Yet, once he was being questioned, sentenced by two, completely different knights, a radiant came up and gave the order to execute Vincenzo- No talks, no questions spoken by the radiant to either, or the knights before hand.
Just simple execution. Vincenzo ended up dying in prison on the spot, like a dog, roughly around twenty hours after he went to prison without trying to fight back.

Later, I learned that the radiant has given the order, while adding a crime Vincenzo didn't even commit- Fighting for the moonfall village.
That... Never happened. True, he had shown willingness to fight, but never actually did due to both OOC and IC reasons:
The first time, when a clash between the residents and the knights first happened, Vincenzo was passed on when they were split into 1v1 fights
The second time, was when the knights arrived again, but before any fights would have started between the two factions, the banshee arrived.

If Vincenzo did actually had a moment to risk fighting the knights for moonfall, I'm guessing he would have had an actual leeway into getting permission to enter the village, yet he didn't (Though, I suspect it would have been a matter of time, and timing to eventually get to talk with Corenlia- All the times he did try to talk with her, knights kept showing into the scene ;-


I am not upset just because my character died- It is a sad thing to lose a character no matter what, but when I joined the syndicate I accepted it as a possibility.
It as theori wrote: "A capture and quiet, execution"

It felt abrupt, it felt sudden. It felt like killing a character off for the sake of killing, ending off a character's roleplay without giving him a chance to spread he seeds, the shock and value of his death, onwards.
Vincenzo died, in a way that is almost certain to not enable the people he had interacted with the most- Both syndicate, and not syndicate- To know of his death, and continue on roleplay with that knowledge.

And that, hurts me the most.
A quick, silent and unforgiving end. A death with no sound to remember, no ripple in in the water... 

At the very least, setting up a public execution would have felt as a rewarding, possibly fitting end to the character. A chance to give his final piece to the story.
Sadly, no such thing was offered.

That's the story I have to bring for this topic, though keep this in mind- My story is but one. Some may have had better fates given, some even crueller, but I can't claim to know them all.

[Jetniss]

Can't see any drawbacks to this system. For one, it's just a form of IC conduct that should already be followed.
Osrona is currently a fascist dictatorship parading as symbols of heroism.
Will trials change outcomes of sentencing much? Hard to say. I've heard of several verdicts of reforming someone just to be undercut by certain knights in the middle of the night that turn a prisoner waiting a chance to reform to be ganked in their own cell. <Insert some egregious time of day here that people would label grime-- IE 2AM for the victim, probably 6PM for the ganker>

The trial may make these executions in the middle of the night less frequent, and will expose the behavior to the rest of society (as someone publicly sentenced will turn heads when they end up dead in the prison the next day, as opposed to now when you don't even know they were in prison and then they suddenly just don't exist creating).

They will most definitely give players more time to react and roleplay around the idea of capture. Allowing time for rescue/escape or anything else. Please do.

[Age of Shadows]

We're in the 1600s. The very concept of a Kingdom or an Empire is that of a fascist dictatorship parading as symbols of heroism. "Trials" don't fit a monarchic, aristocratic political system.

[Goonism]

They want villains to go around n do shit but the second they get captured they will be dead no questions asked, especially if they use occult with the way the lore is set up, and there haven't exactly been chances of breaking out or anything of the sort. They just kill and be done with it.