sin only moment apps
10-24-2021, 08:24 AM
As per the new announcement in the Discord, moment apps are discontinued... Except for sins. This is a very questionable decision on my part, and though I effort posted in the Discord, I feel like this is a much better environment for this sort of discussion. I know we're in the salt mines, but please try to be civil. I don't mean any vitriol or hate towards the administration team by posting this; Merely, I think it's a bad idea and would like other opinions and thoughts based on my experiences, as well as how I view the situation.
The original context of this post is in #announcements, in the E3 discord.
>No moment apps except for sins
Let's start off with the big general topic; If the issue is that the playerbase (myself included) does not think that moment apps are being handled in a form or fashion that we are pleased with, removing them minus a stipulation that makes them super huge climactic potential world changing approvals makes things much worse. It's like one step forwards in removing them, just to double down and go "but we still get to decide the BIG STUFF lol". Sins are huge, monumental, character arcing hiddens that fundamentally change the way not only the character, but in some regard entire FACTIONS are played and handled. They change the worldstate by sheer virtue of existence. And instead of saying "hm, the playerbase is mad at us over moment apps, maybe we should just remove them-" we've instead decided to take the idea and change it in a way so that these huge, world changing hidden abilities are now the only thing you can ask for. If it gets denied, then fine, everybody's peasy cheesy happy, but the moment one gets approved and the community doesn't like who got it or why they got it, it's an even bigger cluster fuck than just normal moment apps. The problem was always them being denied during moments where big things were on the line, and if the community doesn't trust the administration to handle NORMAL moment apps (which include small things like JUST master stances!) then why in the actual fuck did we decide, in what conversation, that SINS, the game-ending tier hiddens that characters strive for their entire LIVES are the one thing that can be moment apped for? As said; One step forwards before it really feels like you've double downed and went "except for the big stuff, hehe".
>Sins (and virtues) only
I hope you're ready for the sin meta of spires to come back if you do this, when literally every single player wrathfully stared in wrath at their brother, wrathfully clenching their fists. If it's the only thing you can moment for, well, guess what people are going to moment app for? That's right, fucking sins and virtues. Even if its something as minor as just telling them "no", it's still something that people are going to fundamentally have in the back of their mind. These character altering hiddens that SHOULD be gunned for from creation are now going to be seen as "well I'm going to die to death in this scene, i might as well try my trigger finger at getting envy lol". And eventually someone WILL get it, and it will just reinforce this thought, especially if its someone that the mass playerbase dictates is perhaps not what they'd expect or who they'd expect to get it. People already cry bias (not me, personally) when it comes to these things, and already consider the moment apps to be terribly handled in general, but encouraging people to gun for sins and always have them in the back of their mind will lead to people constantly over and over going for sins. Nobody likes the meta, the roleplay turns stale, and it still fucks up over protags; There are seven sins and like three(four?) virtues, and while it's easy to fit a sin, not every protag fits a virtue. It's lopsided and potentially going to cause thirty people all at once to gun for sins, which while very few will get them, will get tedious and tiring since it's literally all people RPed in Spires until they were changed to higher tiered/extremely rare hiddens / made unappable.
>"If its best to keep them gone"
As long as the option is in game, people are going to use it. They'll fight their big nemesis in a deadly 5, the end of their arc, the end of an era, moment app for that juicy sin they've waited so long for, and get denied. It will happen a lot, or if not a lot, then enough to cause an impact. If you're going to remove them, you NEED to remove them entirely, not twiddle your thumbs and sit on your ass going "well ahha maybe someone will eventually get it!" holding a dangling carrot on a stick over the heads of players. If the option is there, people will pursue these options; It leads into the above issue, but doesn't solve the issue whatsoever. Instead, I think it even exacerbates it, wherein people will still try to moment app for sins in their personal big climactic scenes and get disappointed or upset when they get denied (and the way these have always been handled, with ZERO feedback, or zero indication as to why they're being denied outside of "well we don't think you're a good fit"). Moment apps were a cool thought but the way they've been handled in the past month or two has made people upset over it, and keeping them in game, no matter in what form or fashion, is going to have people still moment app for them.
It doesn't matter if you tell people very few, if any, will get it. The problem is still there. You need to either remove them all entirely or keep them and just revamp the system. This isn't a band-aid, as was suggested. This feels like its removing a lot of potential player agency for the potential promise of a power boost during climactic heavy scenes with EVEN LESS payout than previous moment apps. It's just not good, and I hope you can see and understand that.
The original context of this post is in #announcements, in the E3 discord.
>No moment apps except for sins
Let's start off with the big general topic; If the issue is that the playerbase (myself included) does not think that moment apps are being handled in a form or fashion that we are pleased with, removing them minus a stipulation that makes them super huge climactic potential world changing approvals makes things much worse. It's like one step forwards in removing them, just to double down and go "but we still get to decide the BIG STUFF lol". Sins are huge, monumental, character arcing hiddens that fundamentally change the way not only the character, but in some regard entire FACTIONS are played and handled. They change the worldstate by sheer virtue of existence. And instead of saying "hm, the playerbase is mad at us over moment apps, maybe we should just remove them-" we've instead decided to take the idea and change it in a way so that these huge, world changing hidden abilities are now the only thing you can ask for. If it gets denied, then fine, everybody's peasy cheesy happy, but the moment one gets approved and the community doesn't like who got it or why they got it, it's an even bigger cluster fuck than just normal moment apps. The problem was always them being denied during moments where big things were on the line, and if the community doesn't trust the administration to handle NORMAL moment apps (which include small things like JUST master stances!) then why in the actual fuck did we decide, in what conversation, that SINS, the game-ending tier hiddens that characters strive for their entire LIVES are the one thing that can be moment apped for? As said; One step forwards before it really feels like you've double downed and went "except for the big stuff, hehe".
>Sins (and virtues) only
I hope you're ready for the sin meta of spires to come back if you do this, when literally every single player wrathfully stared in wrath at their brother, wrathfully clenching their fists. If it's the only thing you can moment for, well, guess what people are going to moment app for? That's right, fucking sins and virtues. Even if its something as minor as just telling them "no", it's still something that people are going to fundamentally have in the back of their mind. These character altering hiddens that SHOULD be gunned for from creation are now going to be seen as "well I'm going to die to death in this scene, i might as well try my trigger finger at getting envy lol". And eventually someone WILL get it, and it will just reinforce this thought, especially if its someone that the mass playerbase dictates is perhaps not what they'd expect or who they'd expect to get it. People already cry bias (not me, personally) when it comes to these things, and already consider the moment apps to be terribly handled in general, but encouraging people to gun for sins and always have them in the back of their mind will lead to people constantly over and over going for sins. Nobody likes the meta, the roleplay turns stale, and it still fucks up over protags; There are seven sins and like three(four?) virtues, and while it's easy to fit a sin, not every protag fits a virtue. It's lopsided and potentially going to cause thirty people all at once to gun for sins, which while very few will get them, will get tedious and tiring since it's literally all people RPed in Spires until they were changed to higher tiered/extremely rare hiddens / made unappable.
>"If its best to keep them gone"
As long as the option is in game, people are going to use it. They'll fight their big nemesis in a deadly 5, the end of their arc, the end of an era, moment app for that juicy sin they've waited so long for, and get denied. It will happen a lot, or if not a lot, then enough to cause an impact. If you're going to remove them, you NEED to remove them entirely, not twiddle your thumbs and sit on your ass going "well ahha maybe someone will eventually get it!" holding a dangling carrot on a stick over the heads of players. If the option is there, people will pursue these options; It leads into the above issue, but doesn't solve the issue whatsoever. Instead, I think it even exacerbates it, wherein people will still try to moment app for sins in their personal big climactic scenes and get disappointed or upset when they get denied (and the way these have always been handled, with ZERO feedback, or zero indication as to why they're being denied outside of "well we don't think you're a good fit"). Moment apps were a cool thought but the way they've been handled in the past month or two has made people upset over it, and keeping them in game, no matter in what form or fashion, is going to have people still moment app for them.
It doesn't matter if you tell people very few, if any, will get it. The problem is still there. You need to either remove them all entirely or keep them and just revamp the system. This isn't a band-aid, as was suggested. This feels like its removing a lot of potential player agency for the potential promise of a power boost during climactic heavy scenes with EVEN LESS payout than previous moment apps. It's just not good, and I hope you can see and understand that.
![[Image: edbae8adc4cdc657c7307971b838ad95.png]](https://i.gyazo.com/edbae8adc4cdc657c7307971b838ad95.png)
if anyone asks i got banned for sending /messages to people
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