Poll: Would you like to see future versions of this thread, focusing on different topics?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes
100.00%
43 100.00%
No
0%
0 0%
Total 43 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

TheoriUpdates and Additions
#1
Hello! I'm Theori, as you know, and today I will be your admin ambassador.

As many of you have probably figured out, at this time its unlikely we'll see another Town Hall. While we got some valuable feedback from it, and built a few goals up, the medium was ultimately very chaotic and ended up devolving. Before I get into the point of this thread, I'd like to give a little update on those goals.

Quote:1. Make a list of every ability not documented on the public hidden page. Clarify whether or not it's available, then document it.
Trenton, brave man that he is, is currently working through this!

2. Write a guide on hidden abilities. Expectations and examples provided.
We're waiting to finish 1. before moving on to this, but it hasn't been forgotten! In the meantime, the Journal Admin's Guide to Journalling offer a rough version of this.

3. Improve the DM rewards, such as varying AP depending on the definition of the event
Done!

4. Reorganize the events sub-forum (archived events, public/global events, player requested, etc)
Done!



Despite shelving the Town Hall idea, we're still into feedback and encouraging others to give their thoughts. The Town Hall was an experiment, and when an experiment doesn't work out, you move on to something else! So, with that in mind, here's what this thread is for; we have a few subjects we're planning on focusing on/opening up to everything to give feedback on. I want to stress beforehand that this is not the place for venting frustration, but rather to constructively work on improving things a little more for everyone! In a similar format to the Town Hall, just in a slower/more focused form. This is in suggestions; if it derails into memeing and the like/gets significantly off topic it may well be moved to salt mines, to forestall the 1984 memes ye have been warned.

Currently, these are our focuses:


Quote:1. Update/modernize rules, a total read over + improvement
This is long coming. For this section, we're looking to hear what you think is unclear and could do with being revised, what you think is outdated and is not longer needed, or what you think should be added! This is a chance for some public rulings to make the proper jump, too, so if you think some should go into the rules thread proper, don't hesitate to bring them up!

2. Lore update
This is probably the most interactive of these points. Keeping lore up to date is hard; all you need to do to get an idea of that is have a glance at the wiki. We've heard that some people think some things are barebones, and we agree! To this, the point of the lore update topic is to encourage community involvement and collaboration; propose lore! We encourage you in this to talk about what you want to see expanded/generally written about, and whether you'd be interested in writing some of it. Hell, if a few people want to write about the same topic, start up a group chat and go at it! This is your chance to contribute to the world you're writing in, and I know I'm personally interested to see what people think could do with expansion, or want to themselves write! 

3. Newbie guide update
The Newbie guide is outdated in a few ways. It doesn't proper give an introduction to the world, more just the mechanics, so we want to look towards changing that. Suggest here what you think should be added to the guide both on the mechanical side, and as a primer for the world so people can go in with at least a simplistic idea!


In a similar manner to the Town Hall, please give your responses headings or numbers to make it easy to see what's about what. While the format may change a bit (assuming this first one is successful), for this first thread please keep on topic to the three points above. Alrighty, look forward to seeing responses! Oh, and just for the heck of it, we'll have a little poll as to whether you like this idea. Cheers!
Reply
#2
Allow me to be the first to break the ice.

2. Lore update

So, with this point there's a lot to get through and update especially given how tedious it often is to reformat things for a wiki posting (and make an account and get permission and all that). IMO there are two key regions to focus on here:

Day to Day - this is things that happen in the overworld and is usually summed up nicely with the SoE posts however that sometimes causes a desync with the wiki. Other things that fall under this umbrella include lore related to all the playable races in the game. Some of these have a mismatch between the game and the wiki (key one being Teraphim off the top of my head).

Event - This is Lore for placed that aren't on the main map and are only visited during events. This is less important for a player but it's a nightmare to try and get a handle on things as a DM. Different people will run events to the same with wildly different things happening with no centralised place to provide updates or draw information from.

I think the main issue with Lore at the moment stems from having a wiki as the depository for most of the information with the rest being scattered around the forums. So for my suggestions it would probably be more prudent to use Live documentation (eg google docs) that is kept up to date by trusted groups who are interested in the topic with Journal admins having the final say in whatever is in the document themselves. This should allow not only more readily updated material but would also promote people to get involved with the Lore they like and actually have a say in things.

To summarise my thoughts in a more succinct manner. There should be an unintimidating and open forum way of people to update/introduce new ideas into the lore outside of the (imo) archaic system of a wiki page. Perhaps to keep the wiki system intact, the 'official' changes to the shared documents can be added to the wiki on a weekly basis.
Rob

[Image: nudd67u.png]
[Image: Ou20Kwc.png]
Reply
#3
3. Newbie Guide update

There are many things flawed with the newbie guide. It’s largely based in mechanics, giving the new player little to stand on when they eventually spawn in. There are a few practical improvements that could be made to the existing guide to give new players a general framework to reduce frustration. But first, let me put this into a perspective within the eyes of a newbie, we were all there once and reflecting on the current experience can serve as a benchmark to work over.

Let’s say there is this newbie, I’d call them Sam. Sam has found their way to byond through space station 13 and decided to explore more of the platform. They found Chronicles of Esshar and are fascinated with the idea of a present world, a freeform magic system, and a bunch of other things. They join the discord, check the current guide for advice, and boot up the game. They jump into character creation, make a human called Bob, and choose Osrona as their spawn location. 
The first thing Sam sees after character creation is a text crawl of lore that was relevant 65 years ago, not giving them any context for the current state of the world. They then spawns into Osrona in brown garb. They move around and post a red text about adjusting their hair as the limited tutorial tells him to do before setting him loose into the world, surrounded by others who already found their footing. He tries to interact with a few others but they either ignore him or intimate him. They may get someone's attention but due to their character being as compelling as a wet fart he doesn't get very far.
At this point the path of Sam diverges based on his choices.
  • Sam could continue going at it with no changes, eventually growing frustrated and quitting the game.
  • Sam could wander off into the wilderness, either ending up in another settlement, slurped by vampires, or walloped by mutants. They may see this as unfair and report it to admins, they may not.
  • Sam could find the academy and try to build up their character there.
  • Sam could look more in the discord and find the forums, finding guides, and taking advice to build to improve their roleplay. 
  • Sam could already have a background in writing and roleplay, figuring out how the world works, and eventually joining the wider community.
Now that I have put it into perspective let me offer a few suggestions on how we can improve the new player experience.

1. Update the opening text
It’s 65 years out of date and doesn't give players context to the current state of the world. Of course, I don’t suggest unloading everything on them, but just a quick TL;DR of current big events anyone IC would have heard about. This could be on both the guide and in-game but it should be somewhere.


2. Make light of more useful commands
I can count on my hand how many times someone got confused when someone asked to follow them, or when they missed a redtext and didn't know how to pull it up. I’m not saying we overload new players with a textbook of commands but some of the more useful ones should be brought to their attention like follow.


3. Emphasise the importance of character building
To progress in Eternia is to roleplay, this is made clear to everyone, but the how for the new player seems a little lost. To succeed you need a character with personality, flaws, and an illusion of being real, to keep people interested in them so they can continue to roleplay and gain more RPP. 
I understand this is more of a broader thing than sharing commands but I think some ideas such as those seen in Tee’s Humble Gude for Better RP should be known by new players to give them a chance. Stuff like having a good hook for a character, constantly expanding your rp circle, joining a faction, and not to lose heart when their efforts are for not could give the new player something to stand on. If they have a hook and know how to use it they can use it as a baseline to build their character, make connections, and eventually lose their newbie status.
[Image: download.png]
Reply
#4
Honestly, just yeet the Opening Crawl, install highly visible public libraries in each settlement that don't require someone sacrifice real estate, and get the lore goblins to write books on the lore.
Reply
#5
(08-23-2021, 02:59 PM)Enginseer-42 Wrote: Honestly, just yeet the Opening Crawl, install  highly visible public libraries in each settlement that don't require someone sacrifice real estate, and get the lore goblins to write books on the lore.

The Blue Unicorn library in Osrona is public and anyone can add to it, likewise with The Family's bookshelf (the door is never locked) in Asphodel, which has over 20 books within to read. While a lot of the latter is personalized letter bindings, you can find out a lot as a new player by trawling through them! When I set both of these book shelves up, my desire was always for it to a public archive of sorts, and I think it's had that effect. 

More theory based books like Alistair's medical handbook would be good. A scholar's history of Esshar, an introduction to magical theory, a glossary of Essharan races, etc. You're absolutely right that in game, easy to find content trumps a wiki or a forum thread, and it has a level of appeal when it's written by an actual character that lived and breathed within Esshar, too.
Reply
#6
(08-23-2021, 02:43 PM)Tyrea Wrote: ...

Very good points. There was talk (a while ago) of remaking the tutorial system and involving quest NPCs to teach the basics (buying items, combat, etc), but admittedly it got lost and forgotten with other development priorities along the line, so this is a great reminder, thank you! 

Updating the cutscene text is an easy one. We'll do so.

EDIT: Done so.
Quote:    "It's been many years since the War For Esshar between the Empire of Barsburg and the Kingdom of Osrona, leading to the collapse and ruin of the former's stronghold, the City of Achyon in the far west. A Lich now rules the wasteland from a Sketelal Dragon Fortress.",

    "In the east, humanity's worst nightmare gather in number: Vampires. Ruled by a ruthless Queen, the Crimson Monarch, and her loyal Viscounts. They swiftly conquer towns and villages within the region, expanding their reach and domination of humanity itself.",

    "At the heart of Esshar, its Kingdom still stands strong. The fabled Petrakis Monarchy has returned during this time of turmoil. The lion's pride and courage keeps the monsters at bay, spearheading a new golden era that will bring prosperity to Esshar once again.",

    "The trials to come will undoubtedly test you, whatever path awaits. Do you practice the forbidden arts, or fight in the honor of your ancestors and your God? Are you wealthy or poor? A thief, a merchant, a tribesman? A human, a dragonborn, a beastkin? Awake and decide.",

    "... Rise, child of Eternia. Adventure awaits..."
Reply
#7
Re: Lore Update
Given the outdated nature of some details (such as the current status of settlements) we do want to put some effort in getting things up-to-date. As such, on top of individuals suggesting where the lore can be enhanced, I want to encourage some work on updating certain subjects. If you have knowledge on the history of the following places and are open to helping getting details on them up to date, please DM me at Theori#5636

1) Osrona - History from start of timeskip to current.

2) Achyon - History from start of timeskip to current.

3) Moxtli - History from start of timeskip to current.


4) Fireblooded - History from start of timeskip to current.

5) Asphodel - History from establishment to current.

Of these subjects, the last two don't even have specific wiki entries! With the help of those who were there (former leadership figures are especially encouraged) I'm confident we can get them up to snuff! Specifically, I'd be starting group DMs and a group google doc to do so.
Reply
#8
Hello, welcome to my thesis on why moment apps suck. I thought it was quite cool when it was announced, but now I've realized that it really boils down to exactly what it says in the tin- admin discretion over whether to try and tip the odds of a fight.

Moment apps (a colloquial term) are described as 'a power upgrade during a high stakes battle where you are the underdog'. To this end, moment apps usually wait until the first round is finished to see who wins and by how much. There's also commentary to not stall rp waiting on moment apps. An example of a moment app is against an 'arch nemesis'. Okay. Now that we're familiar with all of this...

Two major problems.

1. Most of the benefits of another hidden are going to give a limited advantage, unless they're insanely op. How much stronger are you going to get if you're given, optimistically, a 10% ap toggle buff? You'll get about 5-10% stronger. There are some hiddens that are insane and can really bridge the gap... but remember this is typically coming after losing the first round. So we know exactly what the difference was. So, point two...

2. The benefits of adding another hidden are so controllable and minor that it basically comes down to admins tipping the scales of a close fight. Perhaps it is different in practice- this is the conclusion made through an objective analysis of the rules. If the fight is hugely one sided, one hidden isn't going to make a difference unless it's hugely OP. Now remember these fights are supposed to be high stakes, not cap 0s.


Now, some of you might be reading this and think...

Yes, retard, that's the entire point of moment apps.

If that's the case, then I'm posting in rejection of the entire point of moment apps. I think the reward for such a system (an extra spark of cool roleplay, underdog winning) is not worth the potential pain (the idea that your winning or losing a fight is basically decided on admins voting yes or no to a moment app). Especially compounded as there appears to be no reasoning provided on why or why not a moment app might be given at any time.

TL;DR outcome of a fight basically being in admin hands bad.

Thanks for listening.



p.s. mutants and skeletons and everything are still constantly in cities, my other suggestion is to either let go of the banning them rule or MAKE IT MORE OBVIOUS GOOD GOD.



edit: unless the guy is waiting on a journal check for a hidden and you decide to look over that and grant it to him in the middle of the fight. that's cool
Reply
#9
(08-26-2021, 12:59 PM)Oyster. Wrote: ...

I (mostly) agree with you and have shared similar views in private, namely because there's been an abundance of requests for moment apps and it feels like if someone is losing, they'll slip one in. While this isn't the case for the majority of fights, if it is for a small fraction of them then it's still somewhat problematic.

To your specific points,

1. Even if the slight power upgrade is a part of it, moreso the 'benefit' is the wow factor that flashing it in the moment grants, and the subsequent roleplay.

2. Less so 'close fights'. More like when there are clear handicaps and the build up / scene has put the underdog in a way that spotlighting them isn't a bad thing.

I'll give you some examples of where it was used in a very effective, fun way:

Quote:Lando vs Marcel - Both taking flight as the mines of Silverwall were destroyed and being granted a hidden in an epic clash with public/local announcements. A large crowd watched as the battle was effectively decided by their fight.

Nidaz vs Hypnos - A veteran of the Void encounters an upstart that proceeds to mirror and surpass him as they go at it. All watch in suspense.

Alexei vs Torgon - A Dullalan 'rises again' to fight while outmatched. Many of his deep wounds miraculously healing as he's granted Death's Door, refusing to be buried by earth magic. 

Ragnhild vs Illythia - An old, beaten down elder makes a last stand as her home is torn into pieces by the invading force. Her scarred body breaks; overclocked with a cosmic blessing that burns her skin and appears in scalding leylines, burning away her impurities and weaknesses with the might of Kark.

Rowen vs Eldin - Desperate and on the verge of watching his wife die at the hands of her cousin, a Rhoynish warrior unlocks his ancestral power in a nail biting clash to save his love.



That's just five: Some very recent examples and some older ones. I could easily list twenty that had a similar appeal / energy. So it's not without its merits. If a scene is good enough to the point where it deserves a public or local narration, then awarding either party (or both) with an ability is a positive call.

What it tells players: We're watching. We're engaged.
We, the admins, are your hype men and as the DMs and overseers, want to use our storytelling power to highlight and uplift your roleplay. To make it feel memorable to both yourself and others. That's the power of this tool and spontaneous, unexpected rewards. Of effectively turning a standard battle into an on the spot event.


That said, there are downsides. Some of them are,
1. It can be seen solely as a power upgrade rather than a narrative highlight. I've watched stances be requested for (and sometimes even approved). This is not a hype moment. 

2. The worry of 'since my opponent might be granted something, I need to do so too' contributes to the above.

3. Requesting can slow things down. Being told 'no' even if your request isn't up to the standards might be demotivating for the person involved. 

4. Hectic / difficult to handle during a large event, such as a war. If we have 5 requests at the same time it's challenging for us to review each one properly and fairly. Likely going to mean denials all around as the meat grinder of a giant battle isn't a fitting place for it, perhaps.




Pros vs cons. Despite my own grievances for what's effectively a very experimental system, I'm in favor of it because I think the scenes and appeal it's created in the right moments has been worth it.
Reply
#10
Perhaps an odd suggestion, but maybe do away with requests entirely and implement a sort of, theme mod? A few people whose job it is to keep apprised of the local gossip and figure out when it would be appropriate to do Moment App scenarios as well as keep certain things thematically consistent?
Reply
Topic Options
Forum Jump:




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)