DreamspeakerAbsolute State of Antagonists
#21
Playing an antagonist is smothering. Yeah, it's what you sign up for!!! But when you have the same few 210+ rpl people murdering, capturing, or attacking Demons/Mimics/Antags over and over again, well.... why play an antag? You're going to be meat blendered as soon as you roll a 1.


I think a lot of this comes from the fact we don't really hold other players accountable for their actions. We've had instances of large groups of players camping outside the Witches Coven, or outside the cave itself. We've had people capture mimics despite having a clear 60 rpl advantage over them, and then giving them to someone who will 100% kill them. We've had peoples IC flip flop between "murder witch" and "chaos chaos". Yet barely a word has really been said about this, or any actual dialogue on the subject was deflected or ignored. Instead it feels like we all sort of retreat into our private servers where we pat one another on the back and chant "Play stupid games, Win stupid prizes!"


Which is what posts outside of Bogs OP (It's a good post, even if I disagree with some things. You've also been incredibly fair to demons and the like so bless you.) are doing. It's a singular group of players trying to have some stranglehold on the discussion going on when they are, in fact, the greatest perpetrators of this entire issue. If they actually had a problem with anything going on, they'd practice exactly what they're preaching. But it's obvious it's only an issue when it's one of their own.

Case in point, last night's reveal versus the previous big reveal. We've moved on from jumping through hoops to prove someones a witch to criticizing others and how they reacted to Hexes because we dislike the outcome. What's the difference between these two situations?


I hate to make this call out post but something desperately needs to be done. Some people need to step back and look at their overall conduct on the game and realize they haven't been fantastic. We can all certainly do better, so why not STRIVE to do better? Be the change you want to see, blah blah....



On the subject of Hexes, I think they're incredibly toxic for this game. Or any RP game really. Being able to stockpile pseudo-mind controls and wordlessly drop them throughout a scene as a "Go danger this guy and possibly die!" Isn't... really great. At least charm potions have more that go into them, and are very rare. If they're going to be buffed in any way, they should be limited so you can't spend the first 10 years of your life stockpiling essence. I'm aware it's not exactly that easy, nor is it an accurate example, but still.
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#22
“Both sides are doing it the wrong way so that makes it okay!” Is not a valid argument. Obviously antagonists need to think about what makes a good story too... it’s just that these days it’s the good guys who are in control and making it intimidating for anyone to do anything.
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#23
I never liked the dynamic of hexes. I guess it's cool to mind control people, but the second it's done within any vicinity, it doesn't.. bring the best out of IC. It incites annoyance to the person being hexed that they have to do something they think their character wouldn't do. It gets known OOCly right away when it's done and only makes people think to try and do whatever they can to find out ICly who used it on them, etc. Not a healthy tool to use, cool as it might be. Remove it.

.. also, I'd like to stress that antagonists need to be more wary on how they go about things and be less trustworthy to most people, and this isn't even in regards to what happened last night, mostly speaking in general. I do hope the conduct from other players that aren't playing for the RP itself do improve though.
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#24
'Antagonist' is perhaps a misleading word for it, since what comes to mind with that term tends to be chaotic aligned races and magic, when anyone who wants to cause a significant, dramatic change on a character is going to struggle unless they've invested at least a month of time or more. It's not that bad, since you shouldn't be going for the top right away, but certainly means a much slower environment with long lulls compared to say, this format. Much more difficult to organize an effective group unless you're fortunate enough to create when a particular area is booming or you pre-plan something with friends, when you're surrounded by high RPLs who are on friendly terms.

I think what made the peaks of Eternia, Spires, and the start of E3 great were people who took charge and set their sights high, and inspired others with their calibre of writing and actions in the moment. Unexpected changes that kept you on the edge of your seat and invested in that story. Sometimes you wanted them to succeed even if you were their IC enemy and your character was going for their throat, and it's always entertaining to just be a follower of these types because you're being involved in a part of something that feels substantial. When I look around, right now, I see a lot of 'bandit' types but nobody really organizing and leading a group for the long-term, just a repeat of casual > dangerous-for-dev > casual > etc, partly because it's hard to get things going unless you have a decent  support structure and a group of enthusiastic players that you enjoy your scenes with. It's no one's fault but simply a product of the current environment, which will either fix itself over time or not return to those highs due to a lack of quality of excellence among the community.

I believe every death since the start of the game was 'deserved', and when I think back to them one by one, there isn't a single case I'd personally want to retcon. You can't give people indefinite chances when they're making repeat mistakes ICly. You have to let recklessness run its course or the game is simply rigged against risk. Many times I and others have purposely made a 'bad decision' because it suited the IC and been subject to the will of the dice, but if we died there despite knowing the consequences, that's fine. When people do survive and come out the other end, it only makes their actions and the finale more significant. 


With that said, 'Hex' has fantastic potential. I've been involved in scenes where it was used to great effect and we all felt the influence. One example would be the imprisonment of Mim's first witch, who had a hostage that was close to the involved characters and she used that as leeway to make her hexes more damaging. It ultimately led to her escape and gave her a second life, because it was done well & those involved respected it. Another would be when Nebula hexed Alexander while simultaneously using an approved 'sin curse' ability, which was a great scene from start to finish and had all of us in applause. You have to pick your moments with a hex and use them carefully, or it'll end up biting you. You can't plan for meta / poor play, but you can be effective enough to the point where the negative impact is minimized. 
Agreed with the QoL changes - the hex wearing off after hour isn't really intended. Most people don't take OOC time into consideration like that because post times can vary. It'll be changed to six hours regardless.
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#25
Also, something that isn't a big deal but I feel has a negative impact: You're all too friendly with each other. I'd rather go back to the days of cliques in the dark than watch 15+ man calls streaming a scene/fight and be discussed live, every day, rather than let the IC play out naturally. It feels like the OOC barrier isn't as strong. It was worse when some bad actors were still around but I think it needs to be said.
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#26
discord screenshare was mans greatest hubris
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#27
I'll add another thought to the lot and share this moment after I was hexed in Osrona. I figure I can since it's been almost 2 months and Nox has been revealed.

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I think moments like this are precious personally. I felt so outplayed I had to congratulate the one who outplayed me.

Hex is precious. Respect your antagonists but also don't be afraid to oppress them.

See my signature.
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#28
My honest two cents, and probably something that a lot of you guys are going to disagree with, is pretty simple, I think. The actual issue with the game isn't that antagonists are being smothered or that they're weak, it's not that hexes are too weak and it's not that demons being kill on sight, especially with the Dreadwoods now, makes them impossible to play. I'm going to be straight forwards with you all here when I tell you that, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, the problem with antagonists is not the antagonists.

It's you, the protagonists. (but thats not to say the antags also aren't at fault at least a little bit)

This game is, primarily, first and foremost, a roleplaying game. You should strive to give somebody a proper death if and only if it's truly memorable and deserving. No, the third random encounter in the woods is not 'memorable' nor 'deserving' even if they've been attacking people. No, walking up to a mimic and telling them "i know ur a mimic" and forcing them into a danger and capping them isn't memorable nor deserving. And likewise, it's the other way around, as well; Antagonists do the same thing, but in my opinion, to a much lesser scale. And the problem, at least to me, is pretty obvious outright. Sometimes people are going to die, and I don't think the above is currently a terrible thing, that sometimes people die for less than fantastic reasons.. But man, I think some of you take it to far.

I honestly think a lot of you don't play the game to roleplay and have fun. A lot of you play this game to win.

So, let me get into the meat of what I'm trying to say. Let me get into the major point that I'm going to make about this. Discord, as a whole, has ruined this game. People were free to make cliques and friend groups before, but (not naming any names), every Discord group that's been a meta friend group that I've been in has absolutely destroyed the sense of wonder and purpose out of this game. Nothing is sacred anymore. Every single reason- Nebula being a witch, what's going on in the world, who's doing what, even mundane things down to just talking about people's locations or fights is shared endlessly and tirelessly through the channels of Discord's massive hivemind network.

What I'm getting at here is that metagaming has ruined antagonists, and a lot of the 'protagonists' are to blame.

It makes doing anything, especially if you're trying to be secret in any manner like witches are, impossible. Look at Nebula, for example; You can all sit there on your hands and pretend all you want that it wasn't metagaming when, out of the ENTIRE CITY OF OSRONA, a finger was pointed at her and Nox. Out of 60+ PCs, when they were not and had not done anything at all witch-related, they are the ones who got the finger pointed at them. That's not luck. That's sketchy. Especially when Cerise and Sycophant were part of that group and had them too but nobody even thought twice about it. Everyone was so caught up in what they KNEW from their OOC discord friends and what had been shared to them that nobody even second guessed it when she came out as a witch. But on that same note, absolutely nobody looked twice at Cerise or Sycophant before the fact, either.

The situation last night, which I'm ENTIRELY sure spurred this thread, however, is another good example; But for the exact other reason. I'm sorry when I say this and I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but to most people in the Discords I've been invited too, it was quite obvious that Nephele was a witch. I'm sorry if I upset the player, as well, when I say this, but they did not keep it secret. At all. There was minor "hehe i'm posting this for this player!" related things but, overall, legitimately everyone in that Discord knew who the player was and knew that they were a witch, especially after the Crowbert stuff.

What happened, then, is pretty obvious. People don't like Dani, especially in that Discord. People like Nephele's player. So in game, that translated to people jumping through hoops and making massive reaches of logic to accuse Nebula of being a witch.. And on the flip side, when Nephele was accused, that lead to a TON of people immediately rushing to their aid and going "no... no that could never be possible... no....."

But let me get to my major point to all of this, using the above as an example. I've mentioned it earlier, but it's honestly and truly what I think is smothering out this game and destroying antagonism, at least for Witches and Mimics. As said before, I think it's pretty clear.

Metagaming... At least, for the 'major' antagonists. Of course, bandits can still run around and do what they want and shit. This still applies to them but to a lesser extent, as people have a bad habit of talking about their fights in the moment and in some cases even streaming them, which essentially accomplishes the same thing.. Outing them to anybody who will listen.

So, what's my point in all of this, then?

It's not hex that's the problem. It's not mimics and demons being squashed out in legitimate scenes, like last night, that is the problem. The problem is that when these people, especially the two 'stealth' antags(witches and mimics) attempt to do anything, the Discord patrol immediately tries to out them and does their best to out these people to the world. Hexes are roleplayed as if there's something wrong with the player and they make it obvious, in some cases even telling people OOCly that they've been hexed.. People camp outside of the witch cave just to see who comes out of it so they can use it as fuel to kill people and try to cap them once they're in favorable terrain..

The problem with the game isn't that these antagonists are coming in too slowly or that they're too weak. It's that, in the face of an insurmountable amount of people OOCly attempting to find them out, there's nothing for them to do. Once people get their fingers in them OOCly, it will inevitably leak to IC and it's, from there, impossible to tell what they know IC and what they don't. There's no truly honestly easy way to fix this outside of severely changing some rules, but even that doesn't fix the issue with these antagonists getting fucked over. It's why I talk so poorly of the community and why I'm often always the first to criticize whenever an issue is brought up.

I don't know how to fix it. I just know that it's a huge fucking issue.

A game where thirty people can point their fingers at Nebula and call her a witch before she even uses her first hex makes everyone go up and arms and believes them, but one person lays out a solid argument against Nephele(who was known OOCly as well!) and those same thirty people immediately come to her aid in a legitimate scene, going as far as to DM Tattles all sorts of rude things after the fact?

That alone should show you there's something really wrong not necessarily with the state of the game, but with the Community.

The true antagonist, the whole time? It's been in front of our eyes. It's been obvious.

Discord clique chats.
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#29
I always unironically root for the underdog.

Whether they're my enemy or not.

Hell, most of the time?


... I'm rooting for the evil side, because I enjoy the chaos that shit causes.
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#30
discord delenda est
i miss mouse so much
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