Transitioning away from ability apps

[Myradin]

no more apps woo

just adjust the exp requirement (fck influence) and figure out proper tiers for the spells and we're saved...

[Danteric]

mmm yes I welcome a new exalted hidden come on varrach our time is now

Anyway, I like the idea of it, and once the tiers are fleshed out a bit more and spells are adjusted, I think its a good alternative to the effort of applying for /everything/. (Mythics keeping apps is a good idea).

No longer will you get hit with a "at this time," in a ticket regarding your master stance application, and instead be hit with "you're too low level b*tch RP more"

Though I admit I still have some conflicted thoughts on it, as I always preferred sigs to be rarer, not something everybody and their mother has. But that's just me.

[Tristam]

Im happy. Apps have always been so 2010. It's outdated, biased, unnecessary, subjective and gatekeepy. There's always been alternative ways to reward things being unique and roleplaying other than the manual proccess and I am glad this is finally being seen by this team.

The game by itself already has means of automatically tracking progress and roleplay and it's more objective than a public vote system. It's fair. Still, perhaps 30K is a bit too little for Masters.

---

To answer to Velkor :
Just wanted to be sure officially if the app option for masters/exalted were still an option ! This is a roleplaying game and I am sure some characters could have stories to tell on how they acquire such ability.
Like the freebie at rpl230 before, it was a nice alternative way !

I forgot though two negative points.

First of all, I am getting worried if that will encourage people to play for getting signatures, instead of letting their characters "become" the signature through their narrative story.
Secondly : if signatures become more accessible, I am also worried that some magics become less interesting, or become weaker, because they do not have respective "endgame" spells. Which, can push away diversity in builds. For example, Ether and Metamagic and their subtrees have so many signatures. Elemental magic and bio have a decent amount too, but their subtrees are lacking in options.
For example, there is no "nature" signature or "crystal" signature that could match with the others in strength.

And this is why the narrative app option could still be present. Harmonic Attunement is normally a Holy Aura upgrade that you need to have. But I still managed to get it through another mean by explaining my narrative, my learnings and my technique on why I could use such ability, reflavored to not get holy but nature instead.

The Custom Stance for Master signatures at least is a wildcard that fits all.

I am sorry to remind you that people already play for signatures. Do not trick yourself with the false veil of deving. It's a lie that people tell themselves to pretend they're roleplayong and not Powergaming.

I've lost the count of how many people at age 10 have made their characters initially and already had a signature to dev in mind. Have you ever lost an Rpb, got an injury and was asked "(what are you deving?" People ALREADY do this. But they pretend and go towards their goal to metagame and get their cool trophy. It's always been the case, few, veery few applications in the archieve section of this forum are truly ORGANIC.

Besides, a good roleplayer will dev their way throught their things by the simple encouragement that Roleplaying is fun. You don't need to show your progress to others and have subjectivity of others to this proccess, first because it taints the purity of the author's narrative and personal views and second because it's but a proof you're doing it to get what you want and not because you enjoy your writting.

Specially for highly flexible things like most of this game's signatures. It's whole deal for Mythics that work much more like ranks and lore solidifed things. But Sigs? Just give people more freedom to write them out. And if not, even if you don't agree or think someone's writting is meeting whatever subjective standard you set, let them be rewarded for putting as much effort in the game as you in the form of many hours of their life.

I have never seen anything like someone asking "what are you deving for" after losing a fight. Except for perms where players sometimes have preferences.

Personally, a signature is not a goal to achieve, but an identity you become. At age 10 I think there are other concerns to take care of instead of thinking about signatures. I have seen people make a character for the sole purpose of getting a signature/hidden/class and be disappointed when they were denied and had no goals, directions, or ambitions to play towards. They weren't living their character, and it's a bit sad if some people can't play their character in their beginnings instead of focusing on their endgame.

I personally have never stuggled with the ability form, as I was able to tell an organic developpement and narration to achieve such. I only apped, when I felt like the character had enough maturity. If in 30 minutes of writing you could explain in a pleasant story why your character can practice such ability, how they have achieved such and what would be their plans in the future with it, then you had an organic developpement to show.

I am fine with the ability form as an app method. The only thing I dislike in apps, is log diving. This is the real homework, that if you don't have the good practice to immediately save them, it can slow your motivation and makes it feel like a chore.
So I am VERY glad the ability form doesn't require logs at all. Just a narration written in the same duration as a biography post.

That's what I meant by you don't earn a signature,  you "become" the signature. The signature represents a story, an unique/important characteristic of your character.

I think this sets for Mythic Signatures at least. As Mythic Signatures are often attached to specific lore points, be it cultural, religious, regional, sciences, and universal laws and magics.
For example Wayfinding as a whole could be a mythic with how much lore is already set in it.

So yes.
I was  always told that signatures were a rare thing for to achieve, and that we should play our best with the options we currently have or seek the mentors able to teach such. Because if Signatures become more common and accessible through gameplay means (exp and influence), that makes it less impressive as more people become more commonly "exceptional". On top of that people who really struggle to fight but still remain active enough, will face the same wall as the opponent also has the same odds of getting their master/exalted signature as them.

I still remember during my battle in Aphros plaza against a demon, people were LOOC excited when I revealed my spectral sight.

At that point, this almost feels like trying to gain a third or fourth mastery token you can unlock a new spell with in a menu.
So. Perhapsmore mythics signature will be added to the list to help those struggling to still have a bit of a boost.

[Tsaritsa]

Remove the Master Tier Signatures.

Make them Public, Master spells. Add a third master token at 220/other EXP requirement + danger count.
Adjust the requirement for the Exalted Signature [100k exp is around 227 rpl, this is excessive].

Proposed Signature Tier List:

Signature - Exalted Spell

Lightspeed Rush
Shadow Rush
Spatial Rush
Assassin Fist
Chronos Eyes
Tsunami
Supreme Fire Wave
Supreme Magma Wave
Supreme Earth Wave
Blast Rush
Galaxy Explosion
Valor's Light
Soul Drain [this should be a mythic as a package deal with death aura, otherwise make it exalted]
Blood Eyes
Radiant Gleam
Wintermute [put ice age as a master, move wintermute to exalted tier]
Greater Halfshift
Water Dome
Shinobi Surprise
Ultrasmash
Garuda/Ifrit/Fomorian/Vitra/Cetus
Faeroum Arcana
Mind Fray
World of Nightmares

Signature - Mythic Spell

Ifrit's Claw
Thunder King
Glorious Inferno
Super Magi
Silver Cosmic
Celestial Ascension
Holy Lightning / Holy Fire
Titan of Light
Barrier
Harmonic Attunement
Helstorm / Shadowflame / Wraithshroud
Nullification
Dark Guardian
Death Aura
Devil Eyes
Conversion
Sanguine Mien
Flashsword
Wildcard
Windows of Cupiditas
Pandemonium Drive
Unreality's Veil
True Sight
Dreamer's Blessing
Advent of Naberius
Eye of Truth
Sword Saint / Dragon Emperor / Machine Lord

[Drive]

keep thunder king as exalted haha im sure its not a big deal hehe... hahahaa....

[Kartoffelstampfer]

Signature - Exalted Spell

Wintermute [put ice age as a master, move wintermute to exalted tier]

Please don't fuck with wintermute to give out ice age which has been more than once (even in the suggestion thread) been called out as the one sig that actively ruins your bar and progress. Water and Ice already have not the greatest mastery spells as it is. Wintermute is strong yes, but that does not mean this needs to be locked away THIS hard, doube so when mist and wellspring are still the two trees that have not even a mastery spell at all.

[heartkreuz]

I salute the change, it's respectful with player's time and takes away admin bias atleast for two tiers. Using kneepads to appeal the appmin team is not dev, fuck that, and I can imagine the admin team would be against this change, for that same reason, holding control over auras and such. 

OOC standings has nothing to do ingame and wish more people would express it openly.

Achievements and effort should be taken into account, its not a popularity contest.

I was really refraining from posting, as I was going to point out examples naming people, but that would be more harmful than anything considering this change is a reality and only needs to be fleshed out lets get on topic.


On the EXP and influence:

45k for the master and 55k aditional for the exalted for a total of 100k is reasonable, it is supposed to be a milestone. I think additionally, auras are a form of influence as you are exuding mana in a specific way, for master tier auras a hard req of 5k influence and 15k influence for the exalted ones would be coherent (even if I personally hate how limited influence gain is, even if influence per se is a great idea that needs to be expanded). 

About if its a master and exalted or just a master into exalted topic. 

Why not both.

For example, if you want to upgrade your master into exalted totalling for 100k exp sure go for it, if you manage to get 145k exp, another master can be granted, thats almost rpl 232 which is an insane amount of activity, it should be HARD.

Longevity should be rewarded, it is a shame to see characters with 8 IC years disappearing as soon as they hit age 26. Seeing mature adults and elders around the game is awesome especially when you ask them about past events of meranthe they can recall.


On the stratification:

I think people are downplaying what exalted tier means, from what I recalled so far, seems to me Exalted signatures are as powerful as mythic ones, the key component here is how lore intensive they are and probably the IC implications of them. 

You are already a fucking magi, i think 100k exp on you makes you a supermagi now, compared to a death magi and how they can wither things around them, that's the difference between the two, the IC implications and why Death Aura is a mythic.

Holyfire, supermagi, holy lightning being exalted tier makes sense, they have no lore requirement, they are just a mix up of elements (told in a ticket btw) and a raw power up, removing this from exalted is not only spitting on the exalted tier, but also gatekeeping and making players suffer under the app process, again, exalted tier needs to have proper signatures. The case of nullification is different, I think that's a great one to place into mythic tier for his mentorship value on mastering control over emotions.

I insist, the difference between exalted and mythical is how lore heavy / rp impactful is that magic.

I'd be glad to see a bigger focus on mentoring on the mythical level, just cap it to two concurrent mentees and maybe add some IC timer like the grandmaster cd to teach it to new students, the student-teacher relationships and RP potential is something it would be great to see more fleshed out, hope it is more taken into account with Mythic signatures.

Returning the Mythical apps to the forum and making the voting of the team public with a small clarification on their vote would be ideal, after all they don't have to deal with master/exalted ones anymore.


I had more points in mind but I forgot and gotta hit the gym, have a nice day

[Jovinic]

I'd rather keep suggestions simple instead of all these explanations and tangents.

Introduce Signature Tokens, akin to Master Tokens.
- You gain a Signature Token at (30.000) signature EXP and another at (100.000) signature EXP.
- Study things that should influence this value (danger counter, total influence, commendation/reprimand, etc)

Add Signatures skill menu.
- Review current spell rankings (there are things that need change as already stated by Chance)
- Current Master-tier spells cost 1 Signature Token, current Exalted-tier spells cost 2 Signature Tokens.

Let players decide what they want to do with their characters.

[Save]

I'd rather keep suggestions simple instead of all these explanations and tangents.

Introduce Signature Tokens, akin to Master Tokens.
- You gain a Signature Token at (30.000) signature EXP and another at (100.000) signature EXP.
- Study things that should influence this value (danger counter, total influence, commendation/reprimand, etc)

Add Signatures skill menu.
- Review current spell rankings (there are things that need change as already stated by Chance)
- Current Master-tier spells cost 1 Signature Token, current Exalted-tier spells cost 2 Signature Tokens.

Let players decide what they want to do with their characters.

Id say to make Master Signature Tokens (MST'S) and Exalted ones a different kind.
Why? So there's more build variety. 
1 Exalted and 1 Master signature per character, nothing more, nothing less.

[Kal]

I think apps should stay for people wanting to app for non mythics outside of the currently planned req's for this, albeit with a lot more scrutiny given the power gains of it or it's own imposed reqs down the line, I personally like to see people being rewarded for the stories they are telling and what their char embodies, it makes sigs actually feel special and not just overall power bonuses and I feel this takes away from that a lot. I can see some things like magesight not needing an app due to how minor it is in function.

The list definitely needs updated as well as there's a lot of stuff not on it even.