Transitioning away from ability apps

[Tristam]

There is also a third issue that comes.

Signatures were also a way to boost people who struggled to fight their opponents. Be it because they struggle in verbing skills or other, while still being able to bring an interesting story.

In this system, I think that it throws away this idea. Someone who is already dominating in battles, can still become even more stronger now if they are active compared to others who still struggle to fight.

The only option left would be trying to get a mythic to get the edge over, but mythics spells do not cover all magic options.

Oh also, for spells unlisted, how would it go? For example, if one wants to app for Growth.

[Milly]

It's not current influence, it's total influence, @ Stereo

[Stereo Guy]

It's not current influence, it's total influence, @ Stereo

Ah, I do have around 26k total influence. 30k more to go! I am unsure if donating influence adds to that amount, or if it's only the influence you made. Regardless, the system is a good step in the right direction. 

The only thing left afterward is the tiers of signatures, a whole other can of worms. A community vote for each signature choosing between the three tiers may be a good idea to determine those without constant game suggestions asking to nerf X or change Y. Though those will likely continue to happen just as much anyway lol.

[GSM]

This sig list tiering is pretty bleak. Nullification, Super Magi, Titan of Light, Dark Guardian etc being Exalted?

Jesus Christ.

[Chance]

This sig list tiering is pretty bleak. Nullification, Super Magi, Titan of Light, Dark Guardian etc being Exalted?

Jesus Christ.

Exalted is the highest tier. You should really actually read the post (a lot of people have made this mistake)

Mythic is for spells that have high lore requirements/expectations; something like super magi f.ex (generic power up) can obviously be easily flavored and doesn't need an app to prove basic literacy skill. Sure there might be balance adjustments needed but that's missing the point.

[Chance]

Anyway here are some problems we'll hash out / that are open for discussion+food for thought,

1. Mythics not counting towards the #. This means that say, an already-powerful Death Mage (not naming anyone varrach) is going to gain an Exalted spell w this change
So they probably should contribute somehow

2. Whether it should be 'upgrade from a master to exalted' or 'gain an additional signature on top of your master'

3. Obvious imbalance issues, some spells will need to be buffed for their tier, some nerfed, etc

4. The EXP requirements/what the sweet spot might be, it's probably a little too high as is but I'll do some paper math later to figure it out

5. Which spells actually have lore/plot expectations (Mythic) and which don't

[akemimera]

1. Non combat mythics shouldnt count for stacking. Eg artisan etc. Should still follow a review approval.

2. If someone has a master they should have the option of an upgrade or a second master. Double the requirement to upgrade the second master if they wish to pursue that path.

Additionally full clarification of what you can request in a custom stance would be very appreciated.

3. Yeah things will need adjustment, but do not gut sigs in reflex balance changes. Test them in live gameplay slowly. Paper numbers looks scary but not always translatable.

4. God bless whoever made that exp chart

[BabyFatJesus]

45,000 total cost for a master level spell would put it just under 220 rpl, which is where the soft cap starts for rpl gain anyway, and where a good amount of characters have received their first signature also. (don't quote me on that)

45k is also half of the cost of an exalted spell, which pleases my reptile brain.

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I would also recommend allowing for a maximum limit of 2 signature spells to be acquired this way, with a 3rd one being app only, letting the3rd 'application' signature be of any tier.

One Master Signature, One Exalted Signature, and one more signature of any tier you apply to receive.

or

One Master Signature, Second Master signature(same cost as the exalted), and one more signature of any tier you apply to receive.

All of this to keep the options of character IC open and still largely free-form in regards to creativity and the like.

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I would ALSO strongly recommend you count mythics towards this 'maximum'. It doesn't necessarily have to be what I suggested above, it's just been the relative standard so far.

[GSM]

This sig list tiering is pretty bleak. Nullification, Super Magi, Titan of Light, Dark Guardian etc being Exalted?

Jesus Christ.

Exalted is the highest tier. You should really actually read the post (a lot of people have made this mistake)

Mythic is for spells that have high lore requirements/expectations; something like super magi f.ex (generic power up) can obviously be easily flavored and doesn't need an app to prove basic literacy skill. Sure there might be balance adjustments needed but that's missing the point.

The reason I’m saying “Jesus Christ” to this is because people will get to ticket and ask for this if they meet a relatively easy (if character-investment heavy) EXP threshold, when previously they were Mythic (Super Magi was recently changed to be one while the rest remained as Mythics) and then were bumped down just now to make them more accessible at the cost of it now not having any real IC. This is a frankly massive power spike for every other person and contributes to some pretty major stat bloat across the board. 

MY main concern is specifically Nullification, one of (as people like to claim) the strongest sigs in the game, which has a very particular subset of IC required to develop. We already had a time where there were almost 10 Nullification users, and that was gated behind a Mythic app; this caused Nullification to be nerfed and also for it to be re-locked to Occult and the entire list of players who have it to be scrutinized.

Is that not anything but a Mythic? I’m calling into question specifically the tierings that distinguish Mythics from Exalteds. I semi-agree with you on Super Magi, but this is a strictly better deal than the RPL 230 sig investment; it should be treated with a heavy amount of caution, because people can, will, and already have abused the prior system to fish for bonus power. This won’t be any different, except instead of looking for Masters or Exalteds of yesteryear, they can just whole-ass grab some of the most powerful things you can think of which have been relatively gatekept by lore checks.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter.

[Tautology]

Im happy. Apps have always been so 2010. It's outdated, biased, unnecessary, subjective and gatekeepy. There's always been alternative ways to reward things being unique and roleplaying other than the manual proccess and I am glad this is finally being seen by this team.

The game by itself already has means of automatically tracking progress and roleplay and it's more objective than a public vote system. It's fair. Still, perhaps 30K is a bit too little for Masters.

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To answer to Velkor :
Just wanted to be sure officially if the app option for masters/exalted were still an option ! This is a roleplaying game and I am sure some characters could have stories to tell on how they acquire such ability.
Like the freebie at rpl230 before, it was a nice alternative way !

I forgot though two negative points.

First of all, I am getting worried if that will encourage people to play for getting signatures, instead of letting their characters "become" the signature through their narrative story.
Secondly : if signatures become more accessible, I am also worried that some magics become less interesting, or become weaker, because they do not have respective "endgame" spells. Which, can push away diversity in builds. For example, Ether and Metamagic and their subtrees have so many signatures. Elemental magic and bio have a decent amount too, but their subtrees are lacking in options.
For example, there is no "nature" signature or "crystal" signature that could match with the others in strength.

And this is why the narrative app option could still be present. Harmonic Attunement is normally a Holy Aura upgrade that you need to have. But I still managed to get it through another mean by explaining my narrative, my learnings and my technique on why I could use such ability, reflavored to not get holy but nature instead.

The Custom Stance for Master signatures at least is a wildcard that fits all.

I am sorry to remind you that people already play for signatures. Do not trick yourself with the false veil of deving. It's a lie that people tell themselves to pretend they're roleplayong and not Powergaming.

I've lost the count of how many people at age 10 have made their characters initially and already had a signature to dev in mind. Have you ever lost an Rpb, got an injury and was asked "(what are you deving?" People ALREADY do this. But they pretend and go towards their goal to metagame and get their cool trophy. It's always been the case, few, veery few applications in the archieve section of this forum are truly ORGANIC.

Besides, a good roleplayer will dev their way throught their things by the simple encouragement that Roleplaying is fun. You don't need to show your progress to others and have subjectivity of others to this proccess, first because it taints the purity of the author's narrative and personal views and second because it's but a proof you're doing it to get what you want and not because you enjoy your writting.

Specially for highly flexible things like most of this game's signatures. It's whole deal for Mythics that work much more like ranks and lore solidifed things. But Sigs? Just give people more freedom to write them out. And if not, even if you don't agree or think someone's writting is meeting whatever subjective standard you set, let them be rewarded for putting as much effort in the game as you in the form of many hours of their life.