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Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Theori - 10-26-2021

Hello!

So, as everyone keeping up with things knows, a big part of my personal statement of intent as Headmin is to above all do my best to ensure things are interesting and engaging in the world of Esshar. The State of Aegis posts and the plot hooks and public events that spawn from that are an example of this intent, as is - perhaps surprisingly to some - being able to craft dev items. Its my honest belief that crafting dev items in stages with tangible results like dev items you can see in your inventory you can then put into an item gives a better feel of progressing in item creation (and with them experiencing a pretty quick turnover in the requests and being lower-effort than massive item apps, I think that's working - if you've made one and agree/disagree, let us know!). Ultimately all of this comes down to one thing, and I think its probably the most important thing in this game.

Momentum.

Momentum is the key part of any story, from the wider faction v faction conflicts of war and blood and death to smaller, interpersonal tales of a handful of characters dealing with a complicated family. When people feel like they're achieving things, and getting closer to their goals, their interest is naturally higher. When they don't, it decreases. The awkward point, then, is when that momentum disappears, its hard to get it going again. And if there isn't a focus on keeping it going, it stalls.

So, the purpose of this thread is to offer some potential solutions, and get those inclined to respond's thoughts on the matter. I'm going to stick, personally, with two suggestions. Note that while improving journal response times are a valid suggestion for strengthening momentum and is something the team is trying to plan methods to make it easier, thats not the scope of this particular thread. Plus, I think everyone's a bit tired of talking about that.

Suggestion One: World Arcs
So, this is already kind of going on. Positive reception to the Barsburg SoA has turned what was going to be a single public event into a chain, and then eventually to the very likely state of a world arc. Considering that was unplanned at the time, I'm quite happy to see it build up interest to the point that some people are inspired. That's great, the SoA's are supposed to offer hooks! In that line, expect some role apps to go up soon.

World Arcs are generally either player or admin driven; we've recently had a whole bunch of primarily player driven ones (Ebonblooded and Asphodel conflicts, etc) and we've had Admin driven ones in the past (the initial expeditions at the start of the timeskip and the Academy arc). From my position, I've come to think that a balance of the two is actually very important; the Academy arc, for example, was the springboard for the healthiest period of the game population wise and setting wise, with the generation of the Academy class and the immediate one following resulting in the end of the Achyon-Osrona war, the rise of the Docros as a significant threat, and the rise of Asphodel. That high seems to be slowing lately, as much as the Ebonblooded are up to interesting things, so the upcoming incursion of some rogue divisions with ideally help boost that (plus a relatively predictable thing in the future). Moving forward, I'd like that to be the norm; an arc kicks off a new wave of interest, follows its natural course, we enjoy the aftermath, and when things begin to simmer down we fire them up again. A little bit of admin direction, thus, kicks off some momentum, and the players can ride that wave as long as they want. 

Suggestion Two: Factional Goals
This is very much a theoretical thing for the moment. In the very early part of this era, each major faction had a goal; Osrona found Primordials to seek the appointment of an Archmagi, Achyon tried to get Project ADAM going, Moxtli was bringing spirits to their cause and the Fireblooded were hunting for Balmung. These goals offered consistent things to strive for on a larger scale than the interpersonal, and offered a mix of PVP and PVE elements so that all sides involved could have something that didn't rely on someone else losing. I like these, and ideally I'd like to bring them back. Furthermore, I'd like to coordinate with current leaders to figure out a few goals for each group, and make myself open for helping workshop ideas for smaller groups that want something to drive them. I think this would be good, as long as its a result of cooperation, not dictation. I'll likely be experimenting with this soon.


So these are the ideas. I'm asking for feedback, and your own thoughts. Disagreeing is fine, but lets keep it constructive, please!


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - InThePooPoo - 10-26-2021

give bruce his fucking hidden theori


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Mouse - 10-26-2021

Let me just state, first and foremost, that I don't speak for everyone with what I'm about to say. Hell, I probably don't speak for /a lot/ of people when I type this, but it's something thats been bothering me, that I've seen within my group (the ebonblooded, specifically), and that other people's experiences may differ a lot from us. With that said, I think the 'momentum', as you describe it (and its pretty apt) is sapped, hard fucking core, from our main group. You can see it on the player count, and you can really see it in game. The Ebonblooded tower used to be active constantly, with 10-15 people online or around the area at any time. Even after the Ebonblooded took over and the Fireblooded got pushed out, the entirety of the Coat was still relatively active, and you'd see people running around and at least interacting and doing stuff frequently.

But now? The last three times I've logged in at peak hours, I've seen nobody except one or two individuals who were moving to their rooms or going to do quests or any of the above. Very rarely do I see RP, very rarely do I see people in the world or wilderness interacting, and even more sad, the last big public event we had felt.. Pale, in comparison to prior events. Maybe it's just me, and maybe the eruption of the other six factions that were made appable caused this and they're booming, but I think as one of the game's primary antagonistic forces, it feels.. Hard to feel engaged. It feels impossible for us to do very much.

I've had this conversation with Simple in the past, but I just want to air my thoughts out here, because I think a lot of us are feeling the same thing.

When it really, honestly, truly comes down to it, if Osrona wanted to do something about us, short answer, we'd be fucked. We've got two, maybe three powerhouse characters (rip tunder u were a real one) who could actively stand against the biggest of Osrona's characters, and even then, there's more behind them to back them up. Osrona has had years and years to build up, they've had uniques passed down from generation to generation, they've had teachers to offer them easy dev opportunities for hiddens, and most importantly, at some point, had to be enabled in order to fight off the vampire menace. This isn't me thinking this is a bad thing, but I do want to note this is probably where a lot of motivation has been thoroughly sapped dry. I want to further say that I don't think there's any real administration bias towards the Ebonblooded. I don't think you guys actively dislike us or try to keep us weak and frail - In fact, I'd say we've ran about average in terms of getting stuff approved.

But maybe, therein, lies the issue?

The game has been in a constant flux of warfare since Spires. Maybe since E1, I wouldn't know, but I've heard tales. While this is fine for a narrative, as it encourages conflict in the grand scheme of things, there's just nothing else outside of it that offers any sort of enabling device. If you only go on events to shape the world, most of it gets lost to space and time because nobody else sees it. If you don't engage with the current """world"""(read: what we are rping), then you won't be rewarded for it. This is also relatively fine; Shape the environment for others, and it rewards you. All of that said, it forces you into this aspect of either you fight your enemy to get more powerful, or you stay in mediocrity forever. And lets be honest, truly honest: No matter what anyone wants to say, hidden spells are an upgrade. They are a massive powerspike to most characters, even if they're merely offering a niche benefit that fits ones build.

People are not only tired of war, they're tired of what feels like *meaningless* war. You can see it now if you look at the world; The Vampires quit out, and then.. Nothing. There was a big era of peace before the Ebonblooded kicked the Fireblooded out, and now? Now, the ENTIRE SERVER (barring maybe daggermark but they're new) instantly went against them because they were either scared of Osrona or 'allied' to them, no matter their own principles. Ninety percent of the game instantly went and decided 'hey, those guys who are doing what most of us should be fine with? fuck them, its war'. And what's worse, maybe only two or three of our top contenders have been offered benefits and boons to counteract this. Again, I don't think we've been biased against- Far from it, honestly.. But I think what we're up against, whats stacked against us, should be a clear indicator of the game state as a whole.

The Ebonblooded hasn't done anything globally because we'll get stomped out. The entire game wants them dead. Osrona could declare a war and delete them if Simple wasn't an IRL mercy virtue. They've got the vast majority of the server on their side, and without a little bit of enabling, most of us would die instantly to a real full-scale war against the server. Take the entire map, put them on our doorstep (which was happening, by the way...!), and say 'good luck, by the way, you're denied mana absorb, but have a slightly buffed stance'. 'We know you've taken more Ls and are more proactive than anyone else in the game, but we hate your OOC attitude, so we're denying this'. This is conjecture, of course; I don't know what goes in inside the journalmin team's pages anymore, and I'm not privvy to that sort of information, so it's just a guess..

..But it sure does feel bad when the only way to get ahead in this game is to fight the enemy, and we can't fight the enemy because we're not strong enough, and we're not strong enough because we can't fight the enemy, and we can't fight the enemy because-

Well, you get what I mean.

Your ideas are a good start - Global arcs to encourage people to do ANYTHING else. The game that shan't be named, right now, is popping off because they have several DMs constantly running stuff in the world. They're pushing plotlines and even little 'wow elementals are here we need to stop them!' that make the game world seem.. Actually alive. Because it isn't right now. It's different flavors of "good" all meandering together while team evil sits on their mountain and broods and desperately tries to churn out a cool project that will just make team good want to kill them even more.

Increase the reward DMs get substantially if they're running global or on-map events. Have a dedicated team of players and DMs constantly run stuff around that anyone can sign up or just show up for, maybe not with any tangible benefit but just to start chains of events(see: rob). Have a sect of players who are gateways to the playerbase, maybe 'player representatives', who can bring up issues they have in a controlled environment to actually have a 1:1 way of getting real staff intermediary talks instead of this vague 'he said she said' that the playerbase hates so much.

The game is stale right now because there's no way to get stronger. The villains are fucked, the heroes are sitting on their thumbs because they don't want to destroy them, and it's hard for the game to progress or do anything because nobody wants to be THAT GUY who gets the flak and blame for being the reason the game died.

We need outside sources for power, and not just "sometimes you get a cool dev mat but the journal team only gives you +2 pow to your sword". We need outside sources for power, and not just "we know the world is stacked against you and you've done three deadlies against people twice your size, so heres a stance upgrade". We need outside sources for power, and not just "we know you're the most proactive member of your faction, but you're too flip-floppy in our opinion, so you're flat out denied".

The world needs adjusted, the risk-reward systems need CHANGED, ENTIRELY, and the gamestate needs revamped.

I'm not one to suggest a timeskip because I think it's a horrible idea; But with the way things are right now, maybe moving the region, changing the big players, or just.. Doing what Tattles and I did with the Barsburg arc by massively changing things up could be a good thing for the game?

just my two cents


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - CrystikRage - 10-27-2021

plug me in chief, I'm ready


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Enginseer-42 - 10-27-2021

I began writing a huge effortpost here.... but honestly it was a distraction from the thrust of what I want to say. So I'm going to try to make my two arguments as simply as possible.

Suggestion 1.)

The game needs a map overhaul. And not in a minor sense either. Part of the reason the game is the way it is is because the map is designed in such a way as to funnel players together inadvertently. While this can lead to genuine unplanned scenes that are good, but really, most of the time it just leads to people not ever leaving city limits unless they're some variety of blandly neutral merchant, or a battlech@d.


[Image: Map.png?width=676&height=676]

There is a massive amount of wasted space here, and every major faction is practically tripping over each other which gives you no breathing room. Whether it's the massive ocean to the south or the mountain range to the north/plateau to the east.... just.... get rid of those and make the useable part of the map bigger. Because it's suffocatingly small. In E1, you had entire full wilderness zones between each city, Tilandre and Byson aside. Sometimes multiple if you wanted to go from Western Bloc to Eastern Bloc. Sure the map looked funky if you tried to show it as a picture, but it was functional. Esshar's map is pretty, but it's not functional. Terrible pic of the old E1 map for reference, it's missing several landmarks but it's a really, really, old map. 3, 2, 4, 5, and 6 were settlements. There were more but I don't know if this map pre-dates or post-dates them. Guessing pre-dates.

It took genuine effort to go from one city to another. You had to actually decide to do so, and most of the time there was plenty of warning you were leaving your sphere of influence while there being plenty of space to go get lost in.

2.) Make Villains Stealthy Again. The main issue with the power dichotomy is when it's a situation where the powerful side both knows who they're fighting and where they live. This was literally one of the best aspects of the Syndicate in Early E3. The constant paranoia and rumors... right up until that plot was run over by a train but what was not handled well in the past can be, hopefully, learned from and improved.

Disguises should be default for Villain characters. And should be easily made. 


People need room to maneuver. People need quite literal room to grow. They can't do that if the moment they take any action someone disapproves of they get a hit-squad of a dozen 200+ characters on them. Likewise, it's shit to just expect them to hold back out of OOC acknowledgement that if they merc a villain while they're a newbie, it cuts things short.

So introduce space to get lost in, and tools to throw people off the scent.

(Esshar Map for reference if the image doesn't work)

[attachment=108]

(Also, to be sure Valmasia map for reference in case the link doesn't work.)

[attachment=109]


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Kt Who - 10-27-2021

One of the major things that I personally dislike, is as Mouse mentioned, wars kind of suck. It's a PvP game as much as it's an RP game, and to progress, you have to fight - but sometimes you can't. If things continue as they are, in a similar way to end game Spires, there will be no way for new factions, whether based on world events or a group of players coming up with an idea, to fight and grow at a rate that will make for an interesting plot.

That said there are ways to fix it, at least I think so.

One of the things that have seemed to always be pushed is Guilds and Dungeons. This is something I've literally heard brought up constantly by Chance, or other players, since Eternia 1. Do you know what sucks about them though? What do you do as a guild? Nothing. You create a mercenary group and wait for war. You create a Knight group and wait for war. You create a research and development team, you wait for an event admin. You create a monster-hunting group, you want for an event admin. There's no way to effectively remedy this in the current climate, because of how things are handled.

My suggestion? Section up the map.

No not split it up, or make it larger, as the map is a current complaint of the game. Rather have regions, sections of the map, with specific hot spots that offer various rewards. These are places that need to be controlled by guilds or factions for a specific reward, that contributes to the war or city of their allegiance. If you control the Waystone for instance, as a guild, and you're Osronan aligned? +x Amount of gold to your Guild, +x amount of gold to your ruling faction for expansions or huge voyages to even more valuable spots, giving your faction a cool world event chain after you've gathered up so much gold.

City leader doesn't take your guild with all you've contributed? Fuck you then, I declare Waystone as my own point, cutting off that city's gold gain for that region.

It isn't limited only to gold gain either. Do you hold the Occult forest? + Occult Power/Defense depending on alignment to your faction, and + Occult Power/Defense to your city.

What would this add?

Micro battles. Guild vs Guild, Faction vs Faction, fights over regions on a weekly basis. It gives autonomy to groups that would otherwise be waiting for their city leader to give a command. It gives a guideline for wars and gives various bonuses to factions to help them win the wars. It doesn't take away from RP, in fact, it forces people to be in areas other than their houses or hidden away to continue to hold them from invasions.

What would be required?

Adding new structures or places of importance to the map. It could be so easy as a divine incident happens, or something beneath Esshar is triggered, causing the eruption of these monuments Breath of the Wild tower style. No time skip, because time skips never fix anything, just a simple cool world event that causes a rat race of guilds sprinting to own a region.

You'd need to set up guidelines, to keep one city from being able to just hoard all of the hot spots. Multiple battles in a single day perhaps? Maybe limiting how many battles a group can join every week? Osrona has powerhouses right now for instance, but if they spread too thin they'd be unable to defend every spot they'd want to keep, forcing guild and faction interaction from an early point.

This is what I was personally expecting from Spires, with the gigantic islands that got rarely visited.

Do I think this is a perfect plan? No. There's plenty of room for fucking it up. Do I think it would be a step in the right direction? Yes. As of right now, Esshar is one of the more boring continents we've visited just for a lack of things to do and no constant power dynamic shifting that Spires and Prologue had.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

Now tell me I'm stupid.



RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Theori - 10-27-2021

(10-27-2021, 09:09 AM)Kt Who Wrote:
...
Now tell me I'm stupid.

You're not stupid. I like this a lot; its just a matter of figuring out how to implement something like it. I've long wanted a more comprehensive territory system with tangible benefits, but its also...tricky.

Also, I desire a bit of buildable furniture thats a map of Esshar, but thats beside the point.


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Carbon - 10-27-2021

I think what E3 is lacking in comparison to Spires is direction. I understand that the Spire Shards were kind of a "lol-gimmick" thing, but it gave people reasons to war and have conflict with each other. E3 feels like a massive sandbox, with 0 direction where everybody is just told to do whatever they want to. Yeah, it works and is fun for a while, but eventually players get tired of making up silly reasons to go to war with each other over. Cause at the end of the day, this is a war simulation game with RP elements.

I also agree about the map, now I understand that the map NEEDS to be kinda big RN cause E1 didn't have resources and the like, but it does feel kind of easy to avoid conflict and just run around the entire map collecting stuff. In E1, even Spires, leaving your settlement felt dangerous. There was actual danger in stepping outside of what you know and gain rewards for it. Now, I'm not sure how to fix this exactly, as making verbs have more impact/be more dangerous will inevitably lead to cheese like every other time, but maybe something can be thought up.

I like the direction that we are going in, the soft-wipe of role apps was definitely a step in the correct direction, but from what I've seen the apped for roles and their intended DMs haven't done much in regards to events. (besides Theori, who has been doing things. Although I may be wrong.)

World events have always been a topic of conversation that people want to do, nobody besides Rob and Crystik seemed to do them before (I may be wrong). I think DM's shouldn't be working independent but rather in conjunction with players and their goals to set up large scale events, especially the villains.

I have an idea, it might be controversial but -

Perhaps we can limit the amount of private fetch quests that people request and instead funnel DM's energy into large public scale events. Private events always felt a LITTLE unfair, as if you are in the know, have friends who DM it becomes extraordinarily easy to become powerful. Public events, especially those that are planned in conjunction with antagonizing forces ie: ebonblodded, witches, vampires etc, allow for player vs player conflict that spans beyond just simple raids.

Some examples that I can think up from the top of my head are: Vampires vs Shadowmire when they were attempting to pause a ritual. Victors got blood samples/dev materials that loosely tie into their characters and can be further expanded on. Dimitri's Nethradin event also comes to mind. Player made, DM supported. It should also be the other way around, DM made and player supported.

Idk if I made any sense, quickly typing this out before work but yeah.


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Shadovarn - 10-27-2021

I'll post something longer when I get home but...

I feel a lot of momentum is lost when wars drag forever. Not just in terms of a faction equalizing in strength by gaining rol and hiddens, but in the other bleeding its power players.

Honestly, if you want to keep a steady beat, someone has to lose. Too many times had there been a faction at peak power that just wasted away to nothingness and the world stagnated.

Instead of having a more unified country with a small group trying to do rebel shit, you have this fractured land with a bunch of city states and very little change to the overall pacing.

And now Barsburg js going to attack.

Again.

It would have been better had the Docros or Asphodel or Achyon or Osrona or literally anyone had just dominated. Completely and utterly. So that there might be a different change to things beyond "Osrona vs X: the stalemating".


RE: Momentum in the World: A Discussion - Shadovarn - 10-28-2021

Alright, to organize my thoughts a little better...

I'll preface this with two things: One, I've not played the past couple months. So, the current state of the world? No idea, but I can probably guess at it. Even then, I know the issues are less about the topical state of the world of the game, and more the general feel of it. Secondly, I will maintain that the timeskip was probably the worst thing to have happened to the game and has set the precedent for the current state of it. It basically undid all the efforts of the players and killed whatever momentum was going for the Barsburg forces. Whatever the reason, I don't know and do not care. 

Now, as I said earlier, momentum means nothing if nothing comes of it. There have been quite a few times that a group was on the cusp of winning, so to speak, only for it to fizzle out in a big way. But I've also noticed a lot of people that complained when a faction grew in power and became overwhelming, which I think has caused a lot of people to simply quit out of annoyance at being whined at. Though, that really isn't the fault of either side. This entire phase of the game has been one of... 'balanced' conflict. It feels like a lot of back and forth to no gain and no purpose. Which is a stark contrast from how it felt in E1 and from what I've read about E2 (Besides Jianghu popping back up again and again, but whatever). In E1, it was actually a common complaint that 'wars' were just really brutal and bloody skirmishes that often ended in a single battle or two. But the setting was also different. Each of the cities felt more like a city-state that was growing to be part of a larger kingdom, and did a few times. Unified Valmasia was interesting because it was different from different squabbling cities vying for power, now it was either the hegemony oppressing the losers and rebels forming, or families doing sneaky RP while evil brewed in the background.

But that was because the momentum went somewhere. Objectives were met and completed. Progress was made. Compare to this time skip. Did Osrona crush Achyon? Fuck no, it got wiped away by the edict of admins due to ic events within or so. Did Osrona body Asphodel? Fuck no, it imploded and the power players just quit all at once. And that's a constant trend of this phase. Nothing of purpose was accomplished. Nothing of note happened. Everything is mercurial and there is zero legacy. If anything, almost every aspect of note can be traced back to the previous timeskip and the overshadowing influence that Walter had on... well, everything. And I don't know why a faction wasn't allowed to just exert its will to seize power and take over to form an empire/kingdom/whatever, but here we are, basically at square one.

Honestly, I think it's best that, with Osrona being the powerhouse, they just use that power to completely dominate. That way, with the nth iteration of Barsburg attacking (not a bad thing, mind. It makes sense a force like that would attack a fractured and unstable land like Afghani- Esshar.), there can be a more focused drive. Maybe have the other settlements/cities be duchies or fiefs in vassalage to the crown of Osrona. Shift away from just "ETERNAL WAR" into Imperial Political Intrigue with border skirmishes, bandits and the like.

Then, you can have designated wilderlands where the nominal villains, anarchists, cultists and what have you can fuck off to and hide out. Let cities weather the brunt of Barsburg attacks, with shifting states pending the results and outcomes, and have a more 'PvE' focused arc than just "player war that goes no where, take fifteen". I know it's bad that my suggestion is basically "Let Osrona stomp the scrubs until victory" but

They kind of need to. It's all gone too long. The same over and over with no actual resolution. Otherwise, it's going to be the same for the next X months with the same issues cropping up. Let the faction that is dominating 'win' and let what follows happen. There will be salt but people will get over it, they always have.