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+--- Thread: Remove Journals [clickbait] (/thread-9374.html)
Remove Journals [clickbait] - Chance - 10-20-2021
This is something that I've been ruminating on for a long while and would like to eventually put it into action and experiment, but it will be a somewhat extreme shift and needs more consideration/feedback! I'm putting it out that far in advance of an eventual change to give it time to be processed.
But the gist is that I think we need to take a careful look at how journals are handled and how they can often demotivate rather than reward and encourage due to their nature. No matter how responsive and on their game the staff are, there are always going to be complaints of misjudgements, wait times, bias, etc, because it's just human. After over eight years of managing various forms of forum applications, I can say that I am happiest with the current iteration of the system, and believe that thanks to the organizational proactivity of Theori, Milly, Avajain, & every other journal admin, we're currently at our best barring the occasional lull that creeps up on us.
Yet I'm still not satisfied, and never will be with the current way the system works.
So here's my suggestion. It's a somewhat radical change that should be considered and implemented during the next large update, timeskip, expansion, whatever. Automate hidden acquirement, & also rename them to signature/master spells because 'hiddens' is a weird term. Have applications reserved only for game changing things & unique gear (massive projects/wonders, legendary magic, so on).
Instead: Make most signatures public. Add Primordial Flame and Glorious Inferno to the Fire tree. Put Chronos in Time. Cruel Thesis & Spring's Bloom in Nature. So on. Expand the combat style page with the variations of master/exalted styles. Every aura, toggle-buff, attack, aside from spells that have a very heavy IC.
Make all cost HT/Hidden Tokens, and remove automatically gaining 1 at 200RPL.
Instead, every 5 dangers you should be awarded a HT, capped @ 6 total.
Overly strong spells (SFW, Wintermute, Holy Titan, CA) should cost 3 or more, an exalted stance would be 2 total (1 for master, 1 for upgrade) but cost 0 RPP beyond the 5 base cost you currently pay. An aura might be 2.
Let me outline the immediate, justified concerns that might arise from such a system:
Subpar players who danger farm will be the strongest.
Scroll through this thread and consider that the most prominent combatants in the world's history all have a high number of encounters, these are your 'danger farmers'. The truth is that the vast majority of this community are excellent. There are very few players who low effort danger/fight, and even then... why shouldn't they be rewarded? Why can they not be strong? It's up to the political leaders in the game to effectively guide them; someone doesn't need to be the best roleplayer to a.) have a good time, and b.) contribute to a faction through effective leadership from someone above.
I believe that every player who has reached these numbers has been a positive influence on the game, no matter who it is. If it's an OOC issue where someone is known to insult or berate others in LOOC, then they should be reprimanded & have HT removed following a warning. But if someone is playing by the rules, being cooperative? Then they absolutely deserve what comes to them by applying time and passion to the game. I think the cases of toxicity will be managed better and more directly if such a system is added, too, because no one is going to put up with it, nor the admins, which grants an effective mode of punishment that hopefully inspires change within the person.
Not every player enjoys constant battle/PvP. They should be rewarded too.
Agreed completely.
Which is why I think:
1.) On special occasions, a DM should be able to reward HT during an event with pre-approval, ideally the kinds that encourage interaction between multiple factions or are the peak of an event chain. This should be reserved for players who are proactive and simply aren't the fight-y types.
2.) Similarly, those who are actively leading / organizing player events should be considered but are moreso support than in-the-trench combatants and should be considered/discussed by admins (some sort of journal/tracker) for direct HT awards. Maybe you can even have factions nominate characters directly.
It'll encourage 'low effort' battle roleplay.
Let's be honest, is it really a bad thing if there's an incentive for two people to fight/risk injury & develop a story from that? A feud that starts on a whim can bring color in the long-term. There will be checks in place to prevent common forms of abuse (gaining points from low RPLs & the same person on repeat).
We can investigate/flag forms of potential abuse easily enough. I don't think it'll be a problem.
Those are the primary concerns, I'd say, and maybe there are more, hence the thread.
Let me know your thoughts overall. Thank you!
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Gwen - 10-20-2021
I love the hidden token system along with the idea that Masters and other forms of hiddens are made public. Though I don't have anything to add currently to what I read.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Folian - 10-20-2021
I personally dislike this idea, as I think there does need to be a level of moderation that goes into giving out hiddens.
Rather than just being a reward for fighting a lot and battlechadding, I prefer the angle that the current journal system takes in rewarding players for 'telling a good story'. Though of course there's a deal of subjectivity and innate human limitations that serve as flaws to this system, I over all find it preferable.
When you finally work up towards a hidden you've invested a lot of time towards earning, it feels like a proper reward to me. If it's just something automated in a way such as this I don't think it would have nearly as much meaning or impact, but rather something that just makes you 'strong' without properly conveying your IC or the effort that went into earning them (even if 'some' are gated behind this requirement).
My replies are always low effort and not terribly long, but this is my thoughts on it. It could be interesting if implemented properly, but I think the current journal system (even with its flaws) is preferable.
Regardless, I'm interested to see any potential changes the future may bring B)
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - TheHopscotch - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 12:34 AM)Folian Wrote: I personally dislike this idea, as I think there does need to be a level of moderation that goes into giving out hiddens.
This would fall under legendary magic, I believe. Things like sin, White Magic, Fleshcrafting, etc. Stuff that most certainly should not be handed out on a whim. Have applications reserved only for game changing things & unique gear (massive projects/wonders, legendary magic, so on).
However, I don't really see much a need for 'moderation' over something like water prison or cruel thesis. So long as the HT costs are correct, this system would work fine.
I am in clear agreement that something like this would work, not too different from how we currently play the game and encourage a bit more danger into the world as a whole.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Cotillion - 10-20-2021
I feel as if the proposed system focuses on the combative proportion of the game, and that isn't inherently an issue. I just don't see that it's well balanced towards all the aspects that are involved in the game.
In my opinion the most important aspect of the game is the storytelling; that'd include combat, dialogue, politics and internal or even external turmoil for characters it can cover so-so much in a roleplaying game. It feels.. Almost shortsighted, albeit offense isn't intended with my choice of words - It doesn't take into account all the other efforts that're put into the game by the community.
I do think that journals can be demotivational, tiring and even exhausting at times. I don't know that there is a perfect solution, however, I'd hope for a better middleground myself. This is of course just a tl;dr of my personal view on this.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Danteric - 10-20-2021
'Make most signatures public.'
I'll be blunt. While this is good on paper, some hidden spells are horrendously strong. Not all, mind you; and I do believe many could fit in this category and be a healthy change. But some spells are inherently very strong, and without aggressive re-balancing it will be difficult to implement this without throwing the games already delicate balance out of whack.
But if that is taken care of? I think it's a good idea. It will definitely take some trail and error, but given enough time it could work.
However, I am apprehensive of it being based on how many dangers one does. It will only influence the next point. Perhaps another system can be introduced based on influence in the world? A RP post threshold?
'Subpar players who danger farm will be the strongest.'
Nobody can deny that this has happened, and will continue to happen in the future. But it's ultimately a part of a public game such as Eternia. People will join who aren't the best at RPing, but enjoy the combat system (lets be honest, its addicting). However, this can be policed, as Admins can already see any aggressive+ RPB a player gets into. If they see a particular player consistently dangering much lower RPL's without significant reasoning behind it, I am sure they can step in to remedy the situation. That said, it doesn't happen very often, and those that do usually bite off more than they can chew and die early.
Not every player enjoys constant battle/PvP. They should be rewarded too.'
Yes, players who don't participate in battle, be it due to their IC or their inability to properly verb, should be rewarded. The journal system as it is might be a good use for this. For example, a medic for Osrona is constantly treating the wounded, providing constant RP and training other new players display their efforts in the journal as we know it, and get rewarded an appropriate amount of tokens in response.
These are my thoughts on it, though I'm sure will crop up as it gets discussed and fleshed out. If given enough time to implement (Be it from a timeskip or a massive update) I think it could be a good rework. But it could also cause more damage than good. But only time will tell.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Mouse - 10-20-2021
i don't have a very strong opinion except i feel that the "public hidden/signature ability" thing has been tried before with Masters, and that if we go this direction it should probably be aimed more akin to those instead of dumping on a thousand more convoluted systems that players will have to memorize
i'm all for automation, of course, and anything to ease the burden especially with recent journal response times/responses (no offense journal team, i know its stressful) will be a positive in my book
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Chance - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 12:34 AM)Folian Wrote: ...
There are absolutely merits in the current journal system and the determining influence the admins have to be able to alleviate stand out development, but I also consider it somewhat detrimental and archaic in the current approach. We'd be able to do better things if we didn't need to review 50 requests for a stance/aura a week.
For the average player, this is how the journal process goes:
Request a stance - ~3 day wait time, 90% approval rate
Either swap the stance for a strong spell or acquire a second hidden / aura upgrade - ~4-7 day wait time, 50% approval rate; 75%+ on re-try
Rinse and repeat. Do big things, make a splash. Gradually coax the team into awarding you Thunderlord so you can enact your world domination plan.
Step 1 and 2 (the smaller hiddens) can be skipped over completely and awarded through combative activity, or stand out leadership within factions (either nominated in some kind of community form w the various groups), in events/requested, or applied directly by attentive admins that should be focused on storytelling & guiding. For the most part, this system would take a great deal of weight off of the team's back and allow them to have the energy to do more of these good things.
For very special abilities, the 'legendary' stuff like Rift, Necromancy, Sins, Virtues, whatever the new standard of Mythics is considered, or entirely new magic/projects, we're likely going to have some kind of application process unless the ability suits an in-game reward. These will still cost HT, which can be earned with said application or refunding an existing hidden. But ultimately you can reach the 'end game' most aspire to without ever having to make a journal and keep your focus entirely ingame, and maybe this gives you more free time to do cooler stuff than request Muscle Aura or Primordial Flame to earn second hidden status. You could focus on tailoring an application entirely around your legendary goal (much like you do with your item apps) and free up creative energy & time.
But I really don't think we need or want the admin team gate keeping 90% of the current hiddens. And it's not a good carrot-stick method either, because wait times + denials + everything else associated with it is eh.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Chance - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 12:38 AM)Cotillion Wrote: ...
If you have any ideas to reward non-combat roleplay outside of what I've outlined, I'd love to hear it. Events, direct admin awards, & community voting are what immediately come to mind, though I've touched on that already. Some kind of mechanical mayoral / guild leader system, maybe, that helps you reach the cap based on specific guild actions. Or even direct HT rewards if you organize a player event (a tournament or festival, f.ex). I'm sure there are many things we can do.
RE: Remove Journals [clickbait] - Cotillion - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 12:52 AM)chance Wrote:(10-20-2021, 12:38 AM)Cotillion Wrote: ...
If you have any ideas to reward non-combat roleplay outside of what I've outlined, I'd love to hear it. Events, direct admin awards, & community voting are what immediately come to mind, though I've touched on that already. Some kind of mechanical mayoral / guild leader system, maybe, that helps you reach the cap based on specific guild actions. Or even direct HT rewards if you organize an event (a tournament or festival, f.ex). I'm sure there are many things we can do.
It's such a difficult, or even finnicky thing really to try and measure.. How does one quantify a thing that is ultimately subjective...
And yes writing can be objectively well done. Stories, and achievements will resound differently with people. It's perhaps in many ways easier if people who have a rough idea/ideal of what hiddens they'd strive for on their character laid them out early on - naturally this can change according to how your IC develops, but by outlining these as milestones early on it'd be hoped that potential delays in approval/whatnot could be streamlined with said early warning having been given to the journal staff.
I realise this is a bit of a messy paragraph that doesn't really answer the question at hand, but it's something I've pondered about for a long while.