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I love this game, but... - Enigmatic Outlook - 06-27-2020
There's some problems that have been going on lately that have put a really big damper on not only my outlook and mental status regarding the game, but many others as well. I normally don't effort post, and believe me I like to hold myself back as much as possible, but something happened today [And something a few days prior] that sort of irritated a lot of my general grudges with the game-state and the community and I'd like to bring those to light in the here and now.
A bit of a preface; Playing a Demon has been really brutal- In the early phases, when we went out to go roaming we always had to be with our Witch envoys or else we would seriously be ruined hardcore. People playing at extremely low RPLs and trying to get into their characters aren't safe- More on this later- And it becomes sort of an issue where in this cooperative writing game, we often find ourselves fighting others who seem to be playing for keeps.
In recent times, people have started wanting to win-- and there's nothing wrong with that! But there's a lot wrong with stomping out the competition before it even has a chance to go anywhere. People lately have made it a point to kill the mimics and the demons before they get a foothold, which has meant sometimes camping outside the hidden entrance to their nest or taking hit squads out into the woods.
I played one of the Demons- And recently I found myself going to leave the cave we often returned to for a place of safety. Granted, outside of leaving the base- There is next to no RP to be had for your character. When I crawled out, I was met with around four or more PCs of opposing factions waiting there for a catch. I was very lucky to have people who were willing to work with me and offer me a Dangerous 0 for our first encounter despite an RPL gap, but other people may not be so lucky. Many have not been so lucky.
Leaving that four man party with an injury, I found myself with a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth- I've been doing nothing but dangerous battles for my entire character life, and for my recent application I distinctly posted how much I hated the sheer volume of dangerous battles used- But it is the only RP we as demons have been able to snap up. With my main source of RP coming from battles, I have hit this point where every time I go to RP - I am fighting for my life - And being injured means I no longer get to RP for however long unless I want to increase my chances of death. Chance himself posted rather recently that in this current era, it is brutally rough to be an antagonist. And with the game's state, dying is absolutely on the table - First encounter, massive gaps of RPL, character strength disparity - You name it. There's a good chance it won't save you, and your story and effort is curbed right then and there.
There have been several 1 cap encounters with RPL disparities having ranged from upwards of 60 RPL, and in a couple of those cases, mimics have been captured. One died today, as it was taken to Myllenoris when it could've instead been let go or given a fluffed based 'narrow escape'.
This shouldn't be happening. People need to understand that, just because someone rolls a cap, doesn't mean that that person needs to be taken back to a place where they're very likely to die. They do not need to be killed. There are alternatives. Cap does not, and should not equal death in many cases. This is a point many have tried to drill into people's heads time and time again, but it just doesn't stick. Very likely because those people don't actually care.
And that's the core of the problem.
There are good people. Plenty of good people! But there are some people who abuse the lack of actual rulings and they need to be reprimanded for it. Maybe cap 0s need to be encouraged more. Maybe there needs to be rules. People shouldn't be taking gank squads near enemy territory just to try and catch people with their pants down. Some might find that fun and exciting, but it's almost guaranteed that no one on the receiving end finds that to be the case. It chases people away. It has chased people away. People have gotten tired of seeing the same song and dance. Stories are getting stomped on. Antagonists (namely mimics and demons) don't have room to breathe.
The map change is a step in the right direction, as it'll make everything closer and way more clean, but that won't change anything mentioned above.
Though the issues mentioned don't happen every single day, they shouldn't happen at all. It's a problem that needs tackled and deaths in a writing game absolutely should have standards, as dying is permanent and we as writers shouldn't be looking to end each other's story in a premature way. It genuinely feels as if some people have forgotten that this game isn't a competition and that working together is the number one priority over winning.
We as a community need to work together for our fun, and the fun of everyone else. A cooperative writing experience, if you will. Administrative team- If you could look into solutions to making greater strides towards cooperation, the rest of the game and myself would be grateful.
As always- Feel free to make your own suggestions below if you have certain rule changes or etiquette policies in mind. Thanks, everyone.
RE: I love this game, but... - Boneless Pizza - 06-27-2020
Something I'd like to add to this myself is like... you really don't need to capture or kill an antag just because they rolled cap. I've been hearing a lot lately of people doing cap 1s on first encounters only for the antag to roll a cap. Then they're captured and quickly killed.
Maybe it makes perfect sense icly to slay them even if it's first encounter, but even just temping them and letting them go would honestly work too. It seems hard for demons/witches/mimics to heal temps based on what i've heard so, in reality, that's punishment enough as is imo.
Just my two cents on the matter. Considering our limited number of antags, I'd like to see them thrive a bit personally rather than dying prematurely due to a shitty first encounter roll. Especially in the cases where they're dangering with a huge rpl disadvanage which, due to IC, also happens at times.
RE: I love this game, but... - Datura - 06-27-2020
What I think we need, is a better prison system, one that allows a character to be given a sentence that goes for years long, I've been capped on first encounters before and brought to my death...what the hell?
Like, yall. There's this wonderful box with a chair, shitter, and watering bin you can throw me in.
Use it.
and I absolutely agree, too many people are trying to win the map rather than win the ability to write a story. I love playing antags, but then I realized I don't even fucking play antags, I play characters that just don't want to kill demons for one reason or another. Then I get these book long posts of morally objective characters going "mmmhm yehs this man sucks off demons, lets fuck him with a few nails and leave his body burning on a cross"
I really am thinking of just quitting, I wrote a post saying I'm thinking of leaving. Maybe I should be the change I want to see, maybe I should just add to the mess and see if we can collapse the game so even the most ignorant of yall can say "hmm we may have an issue". I played since the vamp arc of e2, and that reminds me of something.
We need antag players to come togther to make an actual fighting force. The real conflict that I'm seeing in this game is this little bitchy bickering between Osrona and Nysea.
The moment a purple-skinned sprite comes along, they drop their swords, shields, and pants, and suddenly are best buddies to defeat the demons. Which is telling me maybe we do need the fight between the world v. occult and demons, maybe we can have the dreadwoods back and maybe even have a settlement in the dreadwoods with some high rpl characters/ECs for raiders to fight, so we stop seeing the massacre of low-tier antags that don't have a secret hideout to rp in. Not to WIN the game, but to not have one's entire character rely on the sewers and cave for small jabs or rp laced with danger 1s...It's pathetic.
and to everyone that's the fucking deus vault brigade.
make a fucking event, slay all the demons, suck 'm off, do whatever you want to characters that aren't made with handwritten lore with motivations, wants, and desires to add to the masses of bodies yall love to sit on as high king of goodboyville, I'm getting tired of seeing "Oh but he is scum and must die" and don't get me fucking STARTED. don't get me started about the implications of Morally good and evil magic, I've heard your argument of "that's just how it is" and I'll turn a deaf ear to yours if that's what you think a conversation is.
yall gonna be the death of me
<3
RE: I love this game, but... - Hoovyking - 06-27-2020
I’m currently playing a demon right now, and I was one of the ones who were originally chosen to “start off” the race. While the experience has been very fun, it’s been honestly exhausting to go out and only find dangerous rp. Granted, I knew that’s what I was getting into when i signed up, but still!
I can count the times where I’ve run into someone who doesn’t want to instantly throw a danger or restrained 1 at me on one hand, and the scenes where it didn’t instantly revolve into a fight were actually incredible. Even when it’s just been fights, there have been some genuinely interesting rivalries developing.
However, walking outside the designated demon cave and running into a group of 3-4, some if not most being kids, is annoying. The rpl gap for these fights is also something I feel heavily: it’s either someone 30+ rpl lower than me with age dr, or 20+ rpl higher with at least a hidden or two.
When it comes to capping demons/mimics/witches? I mean, there’s nothing that can be really enforced or encouraged to stop cap 1 kills. They’re demons, and there are no active settlements that even remotely support them.
The only way I can think of with giving any sort of antag right now a boost is to add some leniency with applications. If that’s already happening? Perfect. But to me, playing any sort of antag race (especially a demon!) feels like I have to be on the top of my verb game tonight 100% of the time, rather than develop a story for myself.
RE: I love this game, but... - Theori - 06-27-2020
If you play a demon, you're signing up for an incredibly rough time. Honestly, the fact that they are essentially a black-and-white issue to the extent you either have to 100% be an antag, compromise your ic, or else be an idiot to interact positively with them is why, in all honesty, I feel like they're best kept as ECs or else left in the past. Now mind you, I'm not saying that first encounter killing demons is at all appropriate -and the 'I thought I killed you but didn't' is always a fair option- but if you sign up to play a demon, you're not going to have a good time if you're not prepared for hardcore mode.
Realistically, people who are almost unanimously of a culture which despises demons, and have a recent history of demons being disastrous when allowed to run free are not going to like demons. They are going to attempt to kill them. That is what you signed up for. People definitely should excercise the left-for-dead approach, but its not fair to make them out to be 'hur dur kill everything bad' when there's a lot of justification for the decision.
RE: I love this game, but... - Milly - 06-27-2020
(06-27-2020, 07:16 AM)Enigmatic Outlook Wrote: I played one of the Demons- And recently I found myself going to leave the cave we often returned to for a place of safety. Granted, outside of leaving the base- There is next to no RP to be had for your character. When I crawled out, I was met with around four or more PCs of opposing factions waiting there for a catch. I was very lucky to have people who were willing to work with me and offer me a Dangerous 0 for our first encounter despite an RPL gap, but other people may not be so lucky. Many have not been so lucky.
Just wanted to specifically respond to this - if it's the scene I'm thinking of, we weren't waiting for a catch. We were passing through the cave and got pursued by another person and we stopped to RP. It was just bad timing is all though I'm glad everything worked out well in the end.
But in general - yes, I agree. People need to understand that just because you cap a person, doesn't mean you need to kill them right then or there - or take them back to your settlement, where their death is all but assured. For example - if someone rolls above injury but is capped, you can easily temp them (or perm them if it's after many encounters) - you don't need to do any of the above at all! Or, you can just not injure them at all, either. That is always an option. Giving people healthy room to grow is good. I'd love to see one of the demons hit their ascension and attain human forms so they're not immediately jumped (This is wishful thinking on my part, ya'll).
Additionally, seeing a settlement blossom out of IC and not being directly placed on the map out of the blue (ala pre-ts), that is friendly/welcoming towards Demons would be great. Maybe Theria is a good candidate for this - they have a past with Demons. Or maybe someone else sets up a secret base somewhere, so they can bloom to fruition. There's not a clear answer to this particular note, but yeah.
RE: I love this game, but... - Datura - 06-27-2020
Secret base don’t work sadly ;-;
Nothing is secret in this game when most people have like 200 alts. I want to put faith in the player base but sometimes I feel like you’re either with Nysea/Osrona or the fuck brigade is coming after you.
RE: I love this game, but... - Dreamspeaker - 06-27-2020
I tend to either ignore Demon babies, despite it being fully in my IC to harm/ kill them, and either let the weaker characters take on them or downright make up any excuse to let them go (up to "it's not worth my time anyway") just because I'm aware of how rough it is for them anyway. I've been trying to only fight equals when it comes to antag side, and leave babies aside.
Also, this isn't "recent" that people are wanting to win. It's been always a thing. A solution?
Name and shame.
RE: I love this game, but... - Datura - 06-27-2020
Name and Shame...we could use that.
RE: I love this game, but... - Gab - 06-27-2020
All these points need support and validation, but there is one in particular that should possibly be urgently addressed:
The power creep is too real, specially as, in opposition to most of Spires' lifespan, progressing far past 200 has become a walk in the park, and 220 becomes the hard cap. There needs to be a more glaring limitation not at how fast PCs are able to climb, but rather, how high.