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Episodic Eternia - Tattles - 06-21-2020
Hi. Very rarely do I make effort posts, but this is something I’ve been thinking about for several months now. Some of the thoughts I’ll bring up here are opinions I’ve sat on for a really long time, and some I’ve only recently started to articulate in discussing with others.
Before everyone mobs me over what I’m sure will be a controversial opinion, I ask that you read what I have to say here with the mindset of viewing Eternia not as an RP game, but through the lens of an author writing a book.
I think in my time playing Eternia, I’ve noticed that one of the bigger flaws of the game is the idea that the story more often than not doesn’t really resolve itself. What I mean by that is if you look at the regular narrative structure of a written piece, you have a clear beginning, rising action/tension, and then a breaking point or climax, followed by resolution and an end. While I’ve played, I think in terms of the overarching plot, I’ve only witnessed 4 of these sorts of ‘climax’ points where the story built towards a satisfying conclusion.
This idea can be seen in the difference between the pre-timeskip Eternia 3 and what we just had in this last war. Before the time-skip, we had plenty of problems that didn’t really support the story, and in the end as things began to fade, we didn’t get a conclusion that was written by players. The narrative was written in the wiki and filled with the 50 year buffer that then gave us what we have now where we started with Myllenoris, Theria, and Osrona.
This shift stuck its landing well and it went on to what I think was one of the most successful and enjoyable war arcs I’ve been a part of. Almost every soldier involved was notable to an extent, they played their parts, and in the end it created an explosive final battle that had massive IC ramifications. If we were to look at this post-timeskip Esshar, the Fall of Osrona would be where the book closed. The ‘wicked White Witch’ was slain, but at a great cost, and with the refugees fleeing to Nysea, Myllenoris having to adjust into a kingdom without Asta, and Nebula still on the prowl, a ‘sequel’ was left available to follow.
Unfortunately, that ‘sequel’ hasn’t really panned out all that well, and like any follow up that falls a bit flat, I think I see a lot of players meandering around hoping for that ‘next big thing’ to pop up, which it very well could. From my time in Spires, I saw arcs of the game come and go, but as I mentioned earlier, I can only think of three of them that had a satisfying beginning, middle, climax, and end. Almost every other was either faded into some weird cloud of AFK characters, lack of care, or boredom that waited and waited in limbo until the next grand seasonal change.
I point all of this out to finally reach the opinion that I expect many won’t agree with, but it’s one I feel like we could discuss as a community.
Episodic Eternia is a healthier way to play.
What I mean by ‘episodic’ is if you look at Spires as one whole story of Agartha, pre-timeskip Esshar as its own tale of Syndicate/Witches v. Holy Kingdom, and now post-timeskip Esshar as its own epic detailing the Fall of Osrona, you get new settings, new stories, and new stages to play out upon.
Imagine if we were offered the possibility to skip forward 10-20 years right now for a moment. Nysea has grown into its own city, a loyalist revival of exorcism, scattered noble houses, and a people who still kneel to the divine Petrakis line. Osrona, meanwhile, has grown into a populist state, now run by a triumvirate that does not owe its power to a bloodline. Both cities rest in an uneasy ceasefire that could be upended any day, but through the efforts of the Coalition, an academy on Starfall has been established that welcomes all young magi wishing to better their talents. I present this example first given it’s where I think we might be in 10-20 years with the current direction of the game. Should someone wish to continue the character they’re playing now, they could be allowed to jump ahead in those 10 years and operate as Berrios and Dun have, two elder characters who I think held a lot of importance in bridging the two time periods together.
Another scenario to consider is one where Barsburg’s invasion claims the mountains, the forests, the south, or some other region. Consider this ‘episode’ or arc to take place in another time jump forward, only this time the factions aren’t Osrona/Myllenoris/Theria, instead we’re given a map of a snowy Barsburg forward point, an area marking Esshar’s populated and perhaps unified area, and a third party neutral zone. This situation is a step further away from what came before it, but it still presents a new environment and a new arc to play out filled with opportunities all on its own.
Taking it even a step beyond that, something of this nature opens the door to plenty of experimental concepts. If Eternia 1 was Valmasia, Eternia 2 was Agartha, and Eternia 3 is Esshar, there’s still a much larger world that is only touched on in tidbits of lore, but never fully realized. Imagine if there wasn’t a stigma against moving to a new environment once one has played itself out, and instead we embraced it to some extent. We could see a setting in Apropriya, Sheng, Agartha or Valmasia in a new time period, or anywhere else in the world.
I’ve arranged this argument in varying levels of separation in order to explain the options we’d have if we opened up to something of this idea, but many of the benefits remain the same between all three.
Often we see characters overstay their welcome, such as Agartha’s Vampires, or characters who burn out once they reach 40-50 years old because they survived to that point. Shifts like this usher in a new cast, and one that is all on level with one another. Barring some elders or pre-existing PCs that transfer into a new environment for one reason or another, there’s something special about the start where everyone is RPL 100, where everyone is climbing to that 200 point, and then the moment where the characters all hit that peak simultaneously and things go off. This sort of level playing field is nearly impossible to recreate while the current story rolls, because some characters hit 200, then 210, then 220, and as we see now with the suffocation of the mimics and lower demons, the division is just too wide to help them really compete.
In my Nysea-Osrona-Academy arc example, consider if we had started there and then introduced a handful of mimics into the game. These mimics are then allowed to infiltrate either the Academy or one of the two factions along with pursuing their own interests. They don’t have to worry about a veteran character who fought through the last two wars coming out of the woods to stomp them, but instead they get to play and grow with the generation they spawn in with.
Themed hiddens, races, and lore also get to make comebacks that right now aren’t really available or even wanted. Necromancy, for instance, is under a hard lock due to its constant use in the past, but perhaps for an ‘episode’ the community wants to play with it once again. A kingdom is introduced where Necromancy is on the rise somewhere outside of it, and the story unfolds. Considering all of the races that have been shuffled in and out, instead of now competing with one another for prevalence as Teraphim, Rhoynish, Demons, and Mimics all do at the given moment, they get their time in the light and are then allowed to come back when the story calls for it.
I’ve gone on arguing my side at length now, and I know the most prominent counter to all I’ve said here is the idea that Eternia’s strength is its continuous story, which is an idea that I actually agree with. Leaving your mark on history is what I think so many players want to achieve, and with that in mind, I would say should a shift to an episodic setting take place, one of the most important things to consider would be to ensure the history is told, that legacies aren’t lost to the wind. Pre-timeskip to Post-timeskip did this well by passing down family names, by directing the history that was set up, and by allowing stories from the past to be retold. I don’t see why this wouldn’t continue on as a trend, or even something that could be looked forward to. A return to Agartha, for instance, would come with a highly developed Levengard, Huangzhou, and Gehenna that reflect where they were left off with an abundance of spire shards at their disposal. A move to Apropriya might allow us to see that Lucien Voss has established a massive house of his own upon his return there, and that his descendents are now one of the primary three families. We’ve been told in the history on the wiki that Valmasia fell and that Ryan Kyros’ reign ended, so what if we’re able to see this setting where the country is trying to reconcile itself? If this history is never wiped and the story strung together from episode to episode, then doesn’t it achieve a similar goal to what we have now?
In my own experience, when the story is fueled and moving, I log in everyday and find some level of enjoyment playing out. My time with my current character was best during the war where he had to grapple with the moralities of it all and where he had to choose what to fight for, and by the end he was still standing, and now, unfortunately, my days are spent waiting for something else to happen. I am of the Day 1 generation that should be preparing to pass the baton on to the next, but that has become difficult given the current climate of the game. There are no new enemies on my level to contend with, because the rising ‘antagonists’ are just too small. I share this because I feel as though it is a similar situation that many find themselves in, even on alts.
It feels like we’re all waiting for someone to spark something new and enjoyable, and unfortunately having the view of an admin and being able to see the full board and all of its pieces, it doesn’t appear to me as though anyone is picking up that mantle that Asta, Alexander/Serea, or Sythaeryn left behind.
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TL;DR
Consider if Eternia was told in an episodic way with arcs that lasted from a few months to a year or more. They’d continue on until interest was lost, and then perhaps a shift would occur.
And as this subforum is titled, this is obviously just a suggestion, one to think on and discuss. It’s a collection of some of the ideas I’ve had for a while now and I wanted to put out there. Whether you disagree or agree, I felt now would be a good time to share it all, if only to say we had the conversation.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Method T - 06-22-2020
This episodic formulae is what many people have suggested in the past to varying degrees, depicting a sort of timeskip/wipe variant of Eternia. A process that -could- work, but only if the community agreed upon it and the necessary changes were made to moderate and perform these transitions. I have always been up for a transition to a format like this, the only issue would be, there would need to be loose time frames for each transition, and everyone would need to be in agreement.
Having a new 'episode' every time the game gets stale would only serve to promote a wipe-based mindset for the player base and honestly, transitioning from the relative permanence of standard Eternia RP to a more impermanent 'Timeskip' based style of managing things could end up being a slippery slope to start with.
Despite all the potential downsides though, I agree that an episodic format for Eternia could work, as long as it is treated with care. If people think their actions have no longevity in the world, they may be prone to not care as much. On the other hand, if characters become less permanent through the time skips, people may find it more rewarding to pursue their goals, to seek those high and wild fantasies, to plan in the short-term and risk it, instead of allowing steady stagnation to seek that one moment of their character's life where everything works out.
If everything has a soft time limit, then everyone has less incentive to try and force their character to stay alive, and more incentive to risk it for their goals.
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The idea can work and I want it to work, but it will require everyone to agree on it, which would be difficult give how divisive this particular suggestion often is, given prior history.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Theori - 06-22-2020
You're right when you say Eternia's strength is its continuous story. No other RP game that has ever gained any interest from me presents the possibility of playing a character for a hundred and twenty ingame years, even if that rarely actually happens. I think you have some really interesting ideas here, but ultimately I think I disagree with this overall.
I can see a few problems with an episodic approach. I'll handle them in dot-points for easier understanding.
- The knowledge that something is coming to an end kills motivation. After the release date of Spires was announced, Eternia went for having a 100+ population to being lucky to find ten online within days. Spires retained a bit more when the release date of Esshar was announced, I think, but I also think that might have been because of the crazy ap modifiers, and I know I personally lost all interest in my character when it was announced because, playing as a child, I knew I wouldn't have any chance to enjoy them as an adult. A similar thing happened pre-timeskip. People love the continuous story aspect of Eternia -I genuinely think its a big part of the draw- and while there will be slumps, I don't think an episodic approach would help.
- On a similar note, imagine you're a new player, coming in and playing for a week, getting really into your character...and then the next 'episode' is announced. Or a player who just finally, after weeks and weeks, finally got a hidden, and then within two weeks your character is gone unless you're lucky enough to become an elder. Eternia as it stands rewards investment in the game, creating a set end point reduces that reward, and I don't think that'd be healthy for the game.
- The case of elders in the first place. Either only a few people get to keep the characters they're invested in, or everyone does, except they're older and likely a lot of their goals are overshadowed by the next admin-set arc. The end of Eternia had Cinderfall, a 'good guy' settlement that beat back an attack from the Alliance of Azraelites, and had a pretty strong momentum to overthrowing them. And yet, in Valmasia's lore in Agartha, they lost, because thats what was decided in the lore writing stage of development. Having your goals erased or treated as not impactful when you're doing your best to do so because of decisions outside your control is not a great feeling, and the idea that as a player you can change the world with your actions is a big draw. I feel like even lessening that ultimately doesn't help the game's appeal.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Dreamspeaker - 06-22-2020
There are a lot more things to cover as far as telling the story goes.
At times, it's a lot more difficult to keep writing a cohesive story of a certain kind because something unexpected can happen to it - for all you know, you can be looking for a conclusion of certain story, but another player goes AFK, has a sudden shift in IC (whether justified or not is entirely different story), or people just lose interest over time in general. It's a lot easier to just sit down and write a book in which you narrate what happens and how it happens, but this isn't a book.
This is a place where everybody contributes a piece of their own story. Sometimes, as result, it turns into a mess.
In my opinion, one of the biggest flaws as to why this keeps happening is what Tattles said - the story rarely has a satisfying climax and conclusion, but in my opinion, I attribute the fact that certain arcs can be often ham-fisted before another even came to conclusion. I remember the time when Spires had Dawn v Huangzhou climax coming up - whatever side would lose, it's honestly whatever at that point, but...
Suddenly, vampires arrive in the middle of that war arc.
Bear with me in this, because I'm talking from my own perspective. As someone who benefited from arriving vampires more than getting harm (see: alliance of Dawn), I'd say the addition of vampires was very poorly timed. We had Dawn v Huangzhou soon to be coming to resolution, then... suddenly vampires are shoved in. Suddenly, Dawn and Huangzhou are united against common enemy - sure, you can argue it's a good twist, but in the end it prolonged time as everyone was trying to survive (for understandable reasons), and it gave an unnecessary powerspike to Dawn that dragged out this war even further. The same was arrival of Demi-Angels, honestly - but this time, a powerspike to Huangzhou. You can argue Demi-Angels were their own entities, and they were, but they were also allies to Huangzhou.
Then we had Moonfall Witches arc pre-timeskip.
It was announced practically out of nowhere. Syndicate arc never saw true resolution, and it just fell flat out of sudden (despite its members still lingering after) - while plenty players from there went AFK, I do not blame them. Being Syndicate at a time was rough and poorly organized in general, and there were many issues with that in general, but before we could get any Syndicate resolution given (be it narrated or otherwise), we already had influx of witches.
Are you beginning to see pattern? Not yet? Very well.
Same about Barsburg & Meteorite. After the resolution of war between cities, we had Barsburg arc to look forward to. I'm more than certain a lot of people were going to enjoy it - but it just didn't really go anywhere. Before we knew it, a sudden introduction of Meteorite. After seeing the coming results of it, this could be broken down as Nebula's showdown (which is okay to draw resolution to her), but..
After that, not much. Two arcs, stacked on top of each other. Just like Dawn v Huangzhou arc with arrival of vampires, and then demi-angels. Just like Osrona v Syndicate, with arrival of Moonfall shoved in.
The point I'm trying to make is that arcs never see any real resolution for the most part, and it often becomes convoluted mess in which the short attention span is fed into for the sake of having more things - but it does not create the climax that people are looking for, or the appropriate end to something.
TL;DR
Arcs should end proper before new one is introduced. They should also have more of a build-up (preferably a bit more public), before they're suddenly dropped onto everyone. Note that it does not have to be obvious - subtle build up is okay too. It creates the smooth episodes, where the veiled threat starts to appear (people don't know what it is yet), then the thing arrives, and then we kick it off from there - only to reach climax of the story and its resolution.
This would help having these episodes.
At least that's how I see it.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Simple - 06-22-2020
It's a very controversial, as well as divisive opinion to broach. However, I for one welcome the idea of embracing a new sort of format for Eternia. I fully understand that a core concept of it in the past has been its longevity- the thought you could create a family which lasts a couple hundred years, make a character who has a profound impact on the story. Great in theory, but it never really translates well in-game. Families collapse, characters are forgotten. Characters have a big burst, but then they die out and fall to relative obscurity very, very quickly. So much so that their existence begins to serve as a detriment to newer characters, which in my opinion is not very engaging or fun.
With a suggested episodic format I would love the idea of checking out other parts of the Eternia universe and world. There is so much out there that we've heard about in the background, but haven't ever really gotten to explore in-depth because we constrain ourselves to one setting for a prolonged period. We could see some real world-scale wars if we explore one region to the next. Each arc could have a lasting impact on the world itself.
As an older player I definitely see the concerns with it, but at the same time the state of the game we have at current is not ideal either. I think with enough care and planning that something like this could potentially work out, but again it'd require a lot of us to let go of what Eternia WAS and rather look to what it CAN be.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Milly - 06-22-2020
I think the idea of... Having "timeskips" occasionally - because let's admit it, that's what they are, is probably not for the best.
Because as other people have mentioned, what if someone new starts playing and suddenly two weeks into their character they have to lose it? Or if someone just got a hidden they worked their ass off for, etc.
It doesn't offer closure to most players.
RE: Episodic Eternia - rea - 06-22-2020
if i have to put up with the phrase "this wipe" actually meaning something in eternia i am going to burst the pipelines of a small, struggling city
RE: Episodic Eternia - Hoovyking - 06-22-2020
I want to warn against having a series of episodic arcs due to the nature of how this game is played, and I think that moving forward there are things to be learned.
The idea of a consistent world, but smaller wipes lends toward a mindset of "here is the singular character I'm going to play, there will be hidden I app for, and when it's done, I'm done." This was the attitude I had when going into the prequel of Eternia 3, and honestly?
Let the game develop a bit between arcs. PvE is important to keep the majority busy while potential antags build themselves up towards throwing the current setting for a loop. This is good, this is something that should be encouraged by having a multitude of antag hidden available compared to "good guy" hiddens.
In my opinion, riftmancy should be easier to obtain than wayfinding, and any other magical analog should fit this mold. More antags allows players to push the game forward compared to the bog-standard "holy/cosmic magi who does only good."
In short? Keep the long-term wipe topics, but make it easier to gain power as an antag verses as a hero. Heroic stories would become that much more interesting when they struggle against a greater force, rather than beating a weaker, more stagnant force.
Keep in mind that I'm completely drunk as shit while writing this.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Chance - 06-22-2020
It's iffy.
It's more than possible to keep things going indefinitely and be relatively entertaining (we did it with both Eternia and Spires), but whether or not it's more fun overall and produces better stories is difficult to say.
I think it's easy to see in both Spires and here, that when you start with strong foundations it produces a great story, but over time that gradually becomes more diluted and wishy-washy, where it's more or less on repeat with a different cast. An 'indefinite' format of the game makes it somewhat difficult to world build I think, where the 'end' of a faction is rarely as conclusive or climatic as it should be, as people enjoy the flavor and tend to go back to iit. What you begin with is going to be the most popular because recreating something from scratch with as much depth and popularity among the community is a heavy challenge. It rarely has the same weight to it.
Eternia 1 began with Danarium, Nostvale, Tilandre, Frostvale, and Byson. These cities/factions continued on until the end; there were decent attempts at introducing new places here and there (Sunflower Village, Mormegil, to name a few), but the big players were always in the spotlight.
Spires begun with Gehenna, Valmasia, and Jianghu. They also each had a presence until the end. And when they didn't have a strong presence, the game felt kind of bland to be honest, during the later stages where it was Crafthold/Levengard.
Esshar is... A little different, in that a lot of us here prefer Osrona. It gets the bulk of the spotlight due to its popularity, perhaps as a result of its map, or its lore as a 'true' medieval kingdom. Now the majority of the community is either Osrona-1 (loyalists) or Osrona-2 (usurpers). For new factions to rise, either of these needs to be wiped out completely, & the mentioned map changes need to take place. Otherwise we're going to be stuck in that loop. As an example of a consequence of that loop, today I read about Kofe/Basil/Mars/Mihalis (?) in a roaming gank squad, and that isn't an inviting atmosphere. Everyone's friends when they shouldn't be, and many of the current strong characters do a disservice to what the world could be. Why should I or anyone else make an antagonist when it'll take 2-3 months to even match day 1 characters? And when they all band together like that? Maybe longer, since they'll be progressing too. It's difficult to bring about true change to such an uneven playing field.
What appeals to me most about an episodic approach is the period of downtime where everyone can organize, factions begin somewhat evenly distributed, and the idea of a 'true' ending. Something big and climatic that isn't overturned by flavor of the month. Then you have a fresh start where we can make the most of the upcoming arc and the transition from whatever conclusion was reached.
So for example, the Republic of Esshar versus the Empire of Barsburg. The former would be led by a council of Essharans; A Dragonlord, an Osronan Representative, and the Valelord. While Barsburg is loaded with advanced weaponry and runetech, all of which could be represented mechanically. That would be something special I think, which you can't really capture with events alone because PvE (while a nice distraction) isn't the same. You won't ever get this kind of change in our current format because it's too restrictive - beating the status quo as a newly introduced faction isn't possible unless you're given massive plot armor (which is lame/unfair), which then just makes that addition feel more like a side piece while people continue to spin around the same story on repeat.
Also some quick rebuttals:
Quote:I remember the time when Spires had Dawn v Huangzhou climax coming up - whatever side would lose, it's honestly whatever at that point, but...
Suddenly, vampires arrive in the middle of that war arc.
What climax? Valmasia vs Jianghu had happened twice already, with big finishes (multiple leader deaths). Dawn was so inactive at that time that you applied to be able to raid settlements on your own. This is a perfect example of trying to keep the same dead horse going, rather than welcoming a fresh of breath air (which the vampire arc was). Similarly for the Syndicate - the faction was well and truly dead, and it was more or less absorbed by the witches (their HQs were linked). They had a final battle, and weren't making a come back. I think your point here is a little all over the place.
Quote:After the release date of Spires was announced, Eternia went for having a 100+ population to being lucky to find ten online within days. Spires retained a bit more when the release date of Esshar was announced, I think, but I also think that might have been because of the crazy ap modifiers,
Eternia averaged at 50-60 during that time. It was the reason we decided to do something new, and I think that choice was earned after five years. Spires' retained more because people enjoyed the roleplay, really, nothing to do with AP modifiers. It was a sleepy period in the story, but that was happening far in advance of any announcement anyway.
Quote:The end of Eternia had Cinderfall, a 'good guy' settlement that beat back an attack from the Alliance of Azraelites, and had a pretty strong momentum to overthrowing them. And yet, in Valmasia's lore in Agartha, they lost, because thats what was decided in the lore writing stage of development.
Cinderfall was the remnants of a destroyed/conquered town, a backwaters village. It wasn't going to topple an empire, and was only effective post-Spires announcement because most of the Azraelite characters had concluded their characters (the server had like a 20 population at that time). This is again an example of not letting stories finish and trying really hard to drag things out, instead of just moving on. A winner and a loser is best instead of a constant back and forth.
With all that said, while I'm a fan of the idea, because I want to explore other parts of Eternia's world rather than be confined, let things continue to develop. Improve the map, and let's see where the current cast goes. Maybe one of the Osrona's falls and something else takes centre stage. It's way too early to really consider what's being suggested here IMO, but it is fun to think about because the freedom involved is inviting. I'll throw in a poll since seeing the general consensus has me curious.
RE: Episodic Eternia - Teemo - 06-22-2020
Uhm. I'm pretty sure Spires was averaging about 30 or fewer players daily during peak times after E3's announcement. I quit like four days after the announcement and those are the numbers I remember. I can only imagine how much lower it dipped during the month-long wait.
Pretty anecdotal, but I find it really hard to feel motivated when a wipe is coming and I'm sure plenty others too. I feel like there're two scenarios most common when a timeskip comes. You either rush to finish your current arc asap or just give it up entirely, neither of which sound too enjoyable imo. Sure, there's still plenty of time to finish as things like this are announced weeks beforehand. But it's hard to motivate yourself to RP when others don't care/aren't motivated themselves.
Episodic sounds like a neat concept that I'd be willing to try, but saying there won't be a drastic drop in pop as the period nears its end is overly optimistic.