(02-18-2020, 05:26 PM)Hated Wrote: At the moment a long range homing spell that we all know very well? Bang. 9 range or so, and if you overheat someone first it does even more damage. Slows.
Another homing meme, Eviscerate. Yeah teleports you to the player with high damage, but what else does it do? fucking knocks you back as the player can instantly move away when doing so. awesome for balance right?
another homing meme. illusion flurry. what the actually hel LOL this thing sits you in place, ticks three times and imagine the poor soul getting hit with this in occult aoe. god damn. (occult aoes doing like 2k ticks when standing in them.)
another homing meme. glacier. nuff said.
another homing meme. goddamn cosmic meteor.
i can go on about all the homings in the game really, but let me put it like this.

investment into armed is 65-80, second attunement for either elements or a special tree would be 60-75 and leaves very little wiggle room for anything else. god help the crafters cus the costs will basicly lock them into 2 trees, maybe just a bit into an advancement like ice, sand (actually impossible cus of high costs unless doing just that.) explosion, shadow etc

Let's not nerf melee cus if we do no one will pick up melee anymore. ive seen plenty of viable mage verbers who don't need no melee crutch. melee has caught enough nerfs ill say it again. lets look at other trees to tune up to meet the demand.

(02-18-2020, 05:43 PM)Kazuki Wrote: Did you just say Ice is one of the worst trees in the game?

Um...

(02-18-2020, 05:34 PM)Mouse Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Jesse Wrote: I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

(02-18-2020, 05:45 PM)Arrow Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 05:34 PM)Mouse Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Jesse Wrote: I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

nah 


ive been playing melee since day 1 and i like it's aesthetic, the damage is well balanced as is. cleave hits for 3k rarely crits for 4k with my 280 md. i can only get to 5k damage if i manage to ice homing or for them to walk into talons, which is a gamble on itself.

melee is strong yes, but aoes right now? they triple tick half your hp lmfao
the only time i saw astronomical numbers fighting melee is when they have +30 +40 pow/ap from hiddens and that's the only reason. 

fatal hits for 7k damage total including the bleed rn and that's with frostbite. i only hit it if i'm willing to take A) 5k damage from aoes, B) 6k damage from shadow claw, which is literally lower cd than cleave and deals 2k more damage, crits at 7k, which is rather absurd on it's own.

not to mention, there's no real counter for eviscrate, bang, pyro they're guaranteed to strike against melee of any caliber, hiddens or not.

so if you're willing to to go with the 'lmfao nerf melee' train from spires, you should look at other trees. Shadow claw is a great spell, that needs it's cd set to at least 12, 4 seconds with 150 agility is absurd. bang is 15 seconds, 12 with high agi, should be extended to at least 20-25. 

also, powersmash was only recently buffed, before it literally dealt doodoo damage and nobody took it and theres less people using it right now because it's expensive to grab. 

tl;dr - melee is literally balanced against most  of the builds right now, nerf the spells i mentioned above and sandstorm too for good measure, if you're willing to nerf melee.

(02-18-2020, 05:34 PM)Mouse Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Jesse Wrote: I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

(02-18-2020, 05:50 PM)Prestige Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 05:45 PM)Arrow Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 05:34 PM)Mouse Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Jesse Wrote: I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

nah 


ive been playing melee since day 1 and i like it's aesthetic, the damage is well balanced as is. cleave hits for 3k rarely crits for 4k with my 280 md. i can only get to 5k damage if i manage to ice homing or for them to walk into talons, which is a gamble on itself.

melee is strong yes, but aoes right now? they triple tick half your hp lmfao
the only time i saw astronomical numbers fighting melee is when they have +30 +40 pow/ap from hiddens and that's the only reason. 

fatal hits for 7k damage total including the bleed rn and that's with frostbite. i only hit it if i'm willing to take A) 5k damage from aoes, B) 6k damage from shadow claw, which is literally lower cd than cleave and deals 2k more damage, crits at 7k, which is rather absurd on it's own.

not to mention, there's no real counter for eviscrate, bang, pyro they're guaranteed to strike against melee of any caliber, hiddens or not.

so if you're willing to to go with the 'lmfao nerf melee' train from spires, you should look at other trees. Shadow claw is a great spell, that needs it's cd set to at least 12, 4 seconds with 150 agility is absurd. bang is 15 seconds, 12 with high agi, should be extended to at least 20-25. 

also, powersmash was only recently buffed, before it literally dealt doodoo damage and nobody took it and theres less people using it right now because it's expensive to grab. 

tl;dr - melee is literally balanced against most  of the builds right now, nerf the spells i mentioned above and sandstorm too for good measure, if you're willing to nerf melee.

Your numbers are all around wrong. Just throwing it out there.

Yeah, do you know why it felt expensive to grab? Because people have been dipping into the tree from the start of E3 to grab fatal/pstrikes/bladestyles and that's it. That's one of the problems of the tree.
AoEs atm deal 2k per tick. You're likely to hit two ticks. The cd on them? 40 seconds of cd. You could argue that the damage is too high, but the cd is there to explain the high damage. 

But just some food for thought: all the spells you're currently talking about are being used by melee players. It's the entire point. The tree does not force you to be some in-your-face fighter with no AoEs/utility for the entire fight. That'd be bad. That'd be terrible. That'd be spires melee. You have some of everything, with just far superior burst.