Some thoughts. Applications System, Investment, and Time

[Chance]

All requests are voted on within 3 days. That's the priority. So yeah, you will know.

One thing we do need to figure out is a system for offline messaging though. We have admin PMs that open a ticket now, which is good, but only for those online, so it's a bit annoying to track players down.

[BLOX]

All requests are voted on within 3 days. That's the priority. So yeah, you will know.

One thing we do need to figure out is a system for offline messaging though. We have admin PMs that open a ticket now, which is good, but only for those online, so it's a bit annoying to track players down.

couldn't you theoretically just use the same code that allows people to send messages via letter in-game to people who're offline to send admin PMs to people who're offline and have it appear once they log on and communicate app denials that way?

[Chance]

Ideally you could open a ticket with someone who's offline, but the way character name works in that regard isn't ideal (since character names aren't stored in any kind of database). Ckey would be fine as a unique identifier, but I prefer IC name. We'll figure something out, anyway. Last night's admin PM->auto-ticket addition is a step in the right direction for now.

Likely we'll need to make providing ckey mandatory for requests, which probably isn't a big deal. (If someone wants to incog, they can always make a new key)

[Nuance]

Well, this has been going for QUITE some time in decent discussion! I think it's time I finally pop my head back in after all this and weigh in a bit now that I've gotten hella perspectives from many ends!

A bit pushed aside, misinterpreted, or misunderstood by a few. Happens. (No, I do not advocate Journals back as the primary form of application.) Hopefully this can put some of that to bed. Many people I thank, regardless, for offering input~ Opposing opinions in the right hands can challenge and give way to deeper avenues of thought.

After skimming around- Some more thoughts.

(Here's hoping I convey it all right-)

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Applications

Condensing or streamlining the applications system is fine. This does solve a big issue of 'WOW this takes forever just to possibly be denied!' 

... However- 

This may lose touch with the finer details of what has led somebody's story to get to the point of where they were that cannot be explained adequately in a '5-20 minute submission', and that will not be heeded if they did elaborate given the format.

This may at worst do much to exacerbate or at least nothing to alleviate issues of claimed bias and the like. As well, no feedback will leave many people feeling even more stranded than many already were.

The default 'Not enough presence' many have come to loathe was already questionable. Now there will be just... Nothing. . .? Even less ability to understand 'What are you looking for?!' or 'What do you want from me?!' that many players end up frustrated over.

A direction/goal in mind with no way known how to attain it. Room for relevancy in a 'might makes right' world shrinking. Disheartening and discouraging to a great many.

While this does help alleviate some of the soul-killing issues to do with waiting periods in a rapidly shifting game, there's more to it-

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As the sort that should probably have their degree in sociology or something, I love digging down to the core of an issue and solving it as so.

Investment, and Time

There seems to be a massive disconnect in representation from:

A small concentrated and vocal mass of people- The 'yes men', generally. The most heard, and known to be most influential. The kind of person that when the community at large sees holding an opinion they all grit their teeth and prepare.

The ambivalent and disheartened 'go with the flow' types that have forced themselves into acceptance of bitter truths regardless of feeling. The 'you get used to it' types, or the 'just disconnect entirely from the game' types. It's understandable given the history I've heard, but it would be beneficial to have less people belonging here.

The massive bulk that feel a certain way, but feel it's pointless to voice it regardless of whether it is popular or not. I personally feel many potentials for progress in positive directions may be quashed in this grouping here, and that's saddening.

Then idjiots like me broken off from the previous two that still feel the need to speak when something urgent might be unaddressed.



The expectation/wish to manifest a fulfilling and worthwhile character. A complex and intriguing goal/narrative that nets others alongside it- Events, announcements, raids, projects, managements, meetings, etc.- Is juxtaposed poorly against what is roughly 3 months and some change optimal to make it happen (if you no-life it). This alongside the other innumerable challenges and barriers this game has writhing along its underbelly. To focus on the Events and the like that breathe more life into things is poor in my opinion, and is missing the greater issues at play.

'Well if you don't like it here, go play somewhere else!'

First off- Where? This game fulfils a niche; it's why people come back despite being burned. If the day comes that an equivalent is made which actually fulfils many wants gone unheeded, then people will go there if there's no binding goodwill. 

Secondly- If an environment is unsatisfactory, then there is no issue in wanting to improve it via critique.


Personally? A strong advocate for lengthening the years to 7 days (or 6, for compromise between both sides until otherwise) as an easy starting point. Finding optimal balance between storytelling, time's flow, and healthy levels of breathing/break room. Yes, even if it was less popular, but especially frustrating given what's been gathered. Taking heed to counterarguments, and after much consideration, they are found to not hold up against scrutiny. 

The most provoking arguments heard have been: 

'Then what if the -DR% threshold was expanded? So it's an age DR issue?!'

and

'Why not just make people immortal then?! You're just upset your character ages! You want them to be young forever! Move on!'

or

'The game is meant to be fast-paced, and if there was any more time things would be boring!'

and

'Well, if you don't have enough time now, more time won't help you.' (What?)

To which is responded- It's a narrative fulfilment issue at its core; a time constraints issue, and a stress issue, a bias issue, etc. etc. 

The former argument misses the forest for the trees, the upper-middle is an accusatory deflection, the bottom-middle is born from incorrect presumption, the lattermost only takes two seconds to ponder.


Another point to ponder: Many people that play this game now have jobs. Deeper obligations. Family issues. Mental health issues. They grew up; from what I gather, this section wants a sliver more time since life is already tedious enough. They like this game they grew up with and the unique outlet it provides. 

Alongside everything else...

The fear arises many are lacking fulfilment before the dreaded decline given the other issues surrounding the game. And, to address another claim preemptively- The fact some people push past this boundary of age does not mean there are not still issues! Case and point- The fact so many claim it to be 'Time to make way for the next generation' and the like when this topic is addressed. In irony, this reinforces there is in fact an unspoken tethering off point, and often only a handful are still encouraged or able to persevere past this. Also ignored are the innumerable others who are thrown through the chipper and recycled due to inability to break leaves past the topsoil.

Survivorship bias.


Not many seem to think the aging mechanic itself is the issue, or the decline, myself included!

My Thoughts:
If there are so many applications coming in at once (the actual numbers were astounding! 30+ daily?!), it is inevitably in partial because so many people feel desperate to get their characters' stories advanced. To get their antics pushed through with what feels like only a handful of days at a time to achieve them. 

No, I do not believe the right solution is to do away with applications altogether. Or, at the very least, not without a way to retain uniqueness and those small flecks of deeper creativity/narrative incentive: the things that make this game doubly enticing. To get rid of that would have even more people wondering 'Why am I even here playing this? Am I expected to try and play a character and be immersed in the creative process, or just. . .?' 

No, I do not think adding more time for people to savor their characters will fix every issue; I think it is a good step given what's been taken in. Like being given more time to prepare and eat a good meal. To handle setbacks, delays, inconveniences, and the like.


To Help with Issues of Disconnect and/or Bias:
'Feedback Surveys' more often, which give a general and genuine feel for the community? Or just have one in general that can be referred to at any time so that even the more timid types can have an outlet to speak into?

'Feedback Committee' is also an idea floating around of people who's job it is to have a more grounded position within the community- Gathering more information on less vocal positions on game direction; just 'one of the guys' removed from places like the discord which hold a notoriety behind them.


Of course... 
All of this means nothing if even when something is made clear it's still not listened to. Above all else, people in general need to be made to feel as if they are being heard! And if a directional choice is being made opposing what seems to be consensus, it must make sense in being thoroughly explained why!

That disconnect has to be mended for better progress to be made, and faster. 
The game lives, but it could thrive. 

A good Dev is meant to serve/direct the base they have accumulated and foster/nurture it, not attempt to cram it into their desired box. The latter has caused many a game/platform to crash and burn, or not reach true potential.

It makes me sad that a lot of the tales I end up hearing are of squandered potentials; the concepts of the game and aesthetics are extremely unique and afford themselves a very strong foundation! Many people enjoy the idea of a shifting and player-driven world! Myself included! The newest major update incoming seems promising! Who doesn't love new toys to play with? The 'Might Makes Right' views of influence has its own series of issues. Such would not be too much of a detraction were it not for a lot of the other innumerable issues surrounding it. 

Still, I wouldn't waste time offering food for thought if I felt it would serve nothing.

[Contrary to what some may think, I actually enjoy the overarching format for what it can be!]

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'Just a Game' or no, many people sink a great amount of their time, investment, talent, and money into it.
It's perfectly fine to hold discussions over 'Just a Game', particularly as laid out with actual reasoning and concerns backing it in good faith.

TL;DR: 
Streamlining applications can be a good step forward! However it raises other issues and fails to address others!
-Details of narratives lost.
-Even more lack of direction for players to achieve goals.
-Bias concerns still unaddressed.
-Even less attention given to those who push 'complex narratives' compared to the 'straightforward conquest and conquer' types.
-Failure to address and alleviate pressures incentivizing rapid and less narratively sound development.
Adding an all-in-one 'Player Guide' to help give people a better idea from the jump what they can strive for and expectations? Good! Appreciated!

Full weeks instead of business weeks seems to be the consensus for optimal year-time currently; for my own reasons, regardless, agreed.
(Pushing decline years back is psychologically sub-optimal)
Ideally listen to the community as a whole, especially when they have a general and obvious consensus over something.
Find a way to get a better feedback on the community's deeper thoughts aside from the 'they vocal few'.
-Frequent surveys accessible from in-game? On the forums?
-A constantly upheld general survey accessible from in-game?
-More polls?
-Even something crazy like 'Once every x years in-game a forum is held where actual characters can voice greater issues to 'game god' via prayers or in person.'?
Alts? Still cool! Generations? Groovy! Aging as a core concept? A-ok! Life, death, conflict? Spicy. Just issues the surrounding weighing things down.

If objecting (which is not always bad!), give good understanding, reason, and discretion besides just personal feels as a dev. This separates good devs from the chaff.

'This game is meant to be-' =/= 'The players I have acquired and that play my game are asking for/of me-'

(If I recall, the recent influx due to player migration from a certain game poses great opportunity for growth!)

[Chance]

Now there will be just... Nothing. . .? Even less ability to understand 'What are you looking for?!' or 'What do you want from me?!' that many players end up frustrated over.

A direction/goal in mind with no way known how to attain it. Room for relevancy in a 'might makes right' world shrinking. Disheartening and discouraging to a great many.

While this does help alleviate some of the soul-killing issues to do with waiting periods in a rapidly shifting game, there's more to it-

If you keep up, you'll see that this is not the case anymore:




You said it wasn't 'listened to', but in a matter of days we've added a new system, wrote documentation on the process/content (some of it community source- or actively discussed with in the suggestions channel), and delivered feedback to many players, then we also made long-term plans to address potential flaws. An example of said feedback:

Nov 20 2023, 00:14] TICKET CREATED:
Admin private message Staff -> [redacted] by [redacted]
The admin Staff has sent you a message: "Hello, your Necromancy request has been denied for now. We liked that you've begun self-development but Necromancy requires the direct tutelage of a master of the art, or reference material such as a tome. You can't just learn it out of nowhere, basically. So we suggest pursuing these paths!"
[Nov 20 2023, 00:18] [redacted]: Thank you for the feedback.
[Nov 20 2023, 00:20] Staff: I'll keep this open so you can ask questions any time.
[Nov 20 2023, 00:22] [redacted]: I do have one  for now at least. - With finding a master it is sort of hard when most people who do necromancy wont teach  and or are hardly on now...is there anyway around that?
[Nov 20 2023, 00:24] [redacted]: Likely, yes. It's an illusive magic and there are very few Necromancers. What I suggest doing at least is working on 'fleshcrafting'- which is Necromancy without the soul part, animating lifeless corpse puppets for example. If you could start weaving that into your character's knowledge/actions, that would be a good start of the mana control aspect of Necromancy.
[Nov 20 2023, 00:25] [redacted]: I do have some fleshcrafting scenes in already cause i was going to start with that originally then went straight into necromancy so i will just back with my original idea then. Thank you so much
[Nov 20 2023, 00:26] Staff: See how it goes over the next few years o7 I'll be here for any updates!

I can't help but feel, after skimming your post, that it's not coming from an objective place. Claims of bias, lack of care/disconnect (when I've genuinely been working on this for days!), making long-winded posts that don't actually push for any real improvements ('more polls', 'faster replies', 'give people (and absolutely me, who was recently denied, and not at all partly fuelled by this) more stuff', etc) with a lack of understanding towards the bigger picture.

I'm also not sure why you are making up quotes of things that have never been said. Is it instituting that this is meant to be the staff's opinion, or what? It's weird and difficult to take seriously in any capacity. The idea that I don't care about people's time/investment is frankly crazy when I'm obsessed with making this platform the best it can be, and almost every waking thought is energy in that direction and active, hard (but fun!) work.

This discourse is ultimately non-fulfilling and going in circles. I'm thankful towards a lot of feedback we've received; it's resulted in changes, new ideas, etc, but for your own in particular need to present your thoughts without misrepresenting the other side and caking your posts in pointless prose. A little give-and-take might help.

[Magik]

So far, and I was wrong in my previous guess on how things would end up going, I believe the new system might be an improvement on many things such as the new little window that allows for applications to be handled in a quicker -ish fashion but it doesn’t change how it affects players and how terrible it feels to get something denied.

Sure it is great that feedback has become a bit easier, but I believe the problem many face is not being able to get a word in while things are being discussed. I might be wrong, but in my case I’ve never had an application be discussed with me (regardless of how much pleading I’ve done in said apps for such) during the denial / approval process, complaints and questions are only open after the fact. Things should be questioned while they are being handled, not after they are done with. Sure you can question and complain all you want, but it won’t change the resolution you’ve gotten, all you are left with is a nicely worded’ try again next time, you’re not doing enough yet, we don’t feel like you’re ready’ … and while yes, they are worded nicely it is soul crushing and truly demotivating knowing that you may have been able to provide some more other things that you might’ve been doing and that might’ve earned you the approval.

I guess my suggestion would be to allow people to have a word in before the verdict is put up, to make it an open road before the denial / approval, that people may try to communicate, negotiate, explain themselves ... whatever!

[Chance]

I'm not too sure how someone would have a word while the application is being processed, that sounds like an organizational nightmare. I think the new system at least lends itself to more of a 'conversation', where there can be a back and forth discussion that isn't slowed down by the forum and whatnot. The ticket will often remain open after the fact for further questions and guidance, if appropriate. Obviously outcomes will vary depending on context and attention. Other than that I'm not too sure!

[Magik]

All it takes is opening someone's dms and saying, "Hey we are missing context on this" or "Would you care to elaborate more on this". That people aren't on discord isn't an excuse, I know for a fact everyone lives in discord (me included!)

That could be a solution when it comes to discussing things; plus you can put people together in a group without actually having to make a server. Either way it is just a suggestion / how I feel about things.

[Malek]

All it takes is opening someone's dms and saying, "Hey we are missing context on this" or "Would you care to elaborate more on this". That people aren't on discord isn't an excuse, I know for a fact everyone lives in discord (me included!)

That could be a solution when it comes to discussing things; plus you can put people together in a group without actually having to make a server. Either way it is just a suggestion / how I feel about things.

They wanna avoid forcing people to have presence on discord, also that's why they can now open tickets with players through admin PMs to discuss/ask questions about their apps in the game itself. It sounds like you haven't seen that feature be incorporated so I thought I'd let you know since it does what you want.

[Magik]

I have seen the feature at work and my point remains the same as before, also, the ticket system could be used in the same fashion before the approval / denial. It is akin to opening someone's dms in discord.