[Prestige]

At the moment a long range homing spell that we all know very well? Bang. 9 range or so, and if you overheat someone first it does even more damage. Slows.
Another homing meme, Eviscerate. Yeah teleports you to the player with high damage, but what else does it do? fucking knocks you back as the player can instantly move away when doing so. awesome for balance right?
another homing meme. illusion flurry. what the actually hel LOL this thing sits you in place, ticks three times and imagine the poor soul getting hit with this in occult aoe. god damn. (occult aoes doing like 2k ticks when standing in them.)
another homing meme. glacier. nuff said.
another homing meme. goddamn cosmic meteor.
i can go on about all the homings in the game really, but let me put it like this.

investment into armed is 65-80, second attunement for either elements or a special tree would be 60-75 and leaves very little wiggle room for anything else. god help the crafters cus the costs will basicly lock them into 2 trees, maybe just a bit into an advancement like ice, sand (actually impossible cus of high costs unless doing just that.) explosion, shadow etc

Let's not nerf melee cus if we do no one will pick up melee anymore. ive seen plenty of viable mage verbers who don't need no melee crutch. melee has caught enough nerfs ill say it again. lets look at other trees to tune up to meet the demand.

Bang has 7 dmg and a cd of 20 seconds. Is it good? Yeah, sure. Is it amazing? No. It isn't. I am not sure why people are convinced it is- but it isn't.
Eviscerate has a cd of 30 and dmg of 11. Teleports you to them and knockbacks, sure. It is a good spell. Great, even. How many points do you spend to reach it? 105.
Illusion flurry, I'll agree, -was- too strong. Then it was nerfed. It deals damage twice (the second tick you can easily block), and roots you. But what else does it do? It roots the user. For longer than the target [there's no reason to be hit by occult aoe + illusion flurry, sorry. if you choose to stand inside an aoe until gcd passes then obv the other person will capitalize on it.]
Glacier is a hidden with, I believe, 12 or 13 spelldamage on a good cd. It's a good spell, no question about it, but it is still a hidden. To one of the worst trees in the game, mind.
Cosmic is all around great but meteor is just... Not what makes it good. It has the most obvious charge up, misses by itself (any person who's used cosmic knows what I am referring to) and is countered by- wait for it- walking to the border of the rpb box. You have enough time to do so during the charge up.

Investment in armed is... 75. For the good spells. Can stop at 50/60 if you want to skip Psmash and go for the other good spells.

No one is suggesting to butcher melee, but numbers should be looked at and tweaked. It's a part of the game. If you aren't ready for your tree to be nerfed one day, then I am afraid I'll have to drop this: you aren't ready to play a combat-focused character on the game.

Balance has been a thing, is a thing, and will continue to be a thing. It's the way it is.

[Kazuki]

Did you just say Ice is one of the worst trees in the game?

Um...

[Prestige]

Did you just say Ice is one of the worst trees in the game?

Um...

Okay, okay. Correction.

One of the worst trees without hiddens. It gets better with them.

[Arrow]

I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

nah 


ive been playing melee since day 1 and i like it's aesthetic, the damage is well balanced as is. cleave hits for 3k rarely crits for 4k with my 280 md. i can only get to 5k damage if i manage to ice homing or for them to walk into talons, which is a gamble on itself.

melee is strong yes, but aoes right now? they triple tick half your hp lmfao
the only time i saw astronomical numbers fighting melee is when they have +30 +40 pow/ap from hiddens and that's the only reason. 

fatal hits for 7k damage total including the bleed rn and that's with frostbite. i only hit it if i'm willing to take A) 5k damage from aoes, B) 6k damage from shadow claw, which is literally lower cd than cleave and deals 2k more damage, crits at 7k, which is rather absurd on it's own.

not to mention, there's no real counter for eviscrate, bang, pyro they're guaranteed to strike against melee of any caliber, hiddens or not.

so if you're willing to to go with the 'lmfao nerf melee' train from spires, you should look at other trees. Shadow claw is a great spell, that needs it's cd set to at least 12, 4 seconds with 150 agility is absurd. bang is 15 seconds, 12 with high agi, should be extended to at least 20-25. 

also, powersmash was only recently buffed, before it literally dealt doodoo damage and nobody took it and theres less people using it right now because it's expensive to grab. 

tl;dr - melee is literally balanced against most  of the builds right now, nerf the spells i mentioned above and sandstorm too for good measure, if you're willing to nerf melee.

[Prestige]

I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

nah 


ive been playing melee since day 1 and i like it's aesthetic, the damage is well balanced as is. cleave hits for 3k rarely crits for 4k with my 280 md. i can only get to 5k damage if i manage to ice homing or for them to walk into talons, which is a gamble on itself.

melee is strong yes, but aoes right now? they triple tick half your hp lmfao
the only time i saw astronomical numbers fighting melee is when they have +30 +40 pow/ap from hiddens and that's the only reason. 

fatal hits for 7k damage total including the bleed rn and that's with frostbite. i only hit it if i'm willing to take A) 5k damage from aoes, B) 6k damage from shadow claw, which is literally lower cd than cleave and deals 2k more damage, crits at 7k, which is rather absurd on it's own.

not to mention, there's no real counter for eviscrate, bang, pyro they're guaranteed to strike against melee of any caliber, hiddens or not.

so if you're willing to to go with the 'lmfao nerf melee' train from spires, you should look at other trees. Shadow claw is a great spell, that needs it's cd set to at least 12, 4 seconds with 150 agility is absurd. bang is 15 seconds, 12 with high agi, should be extended to at least 20-25. 

also, powersmash was only recently buffed, before it literally dealt doodoo damage and nobody took it and theres less people using it right now because it's expensive to grab. 

tl;dr - melee is literally balanced against most  of the builds right now, nerf the spells i mentioned above and sandstorm too for good measure, if you're willing to nerf melee.

Your numbers are all around wrong. Just throwing it out there.

Yeah, do you know why it felt expensive to grab? Because people have been dipping into the tree from the start of E3 to grab fatal/pstrikes/bladestyles and that's it. That's one of the problems of the tree.
AoEs atm deal 2k per tick. You're likely to hit two ticks. The cd on them? 40 seconds of cd. You could argue that the damage is too high, but the cd is there to explain the high damage. 

But just some food for thought: all the spells you're currently talking about are being used by melee players. It's the entire point. The tree does not force you to be some in-your-face fighter with no AoEs/utility for the entire fight. That'd be bad. That'd be terrible. That'd be spires melee. You have some of everything, with just far superior burst.

[Hated]

you can get punished for dash, take big damage and lose momentum.
you can certainly miss double slash if youre not on top of them, just time the dash really.
sweeping cleave is a meme cus its animation will miss on it's own sporadically.
fatal only moves at the same speed as a dash and isn't reliable unless youre on top of someone or theyre slowed.
psmash is good but an intermediate.
can we get justice for flurry slashes.
phantom intermediate sure, but costs need to be work around so that you don't wind up spending 70 rpp just to spend 15 for psmash for a total of 85

my point is this shit can MISS and it is not the players fault if theyre coordinating and adapting/making use of other trees to help it land. sorry but i am not for another melee nerf. AS SOMEONE WHO HAS ALWAYS PLAYED A COMBAT FOCUSED CHARACTER,....Let alone ALWAYS MELEE? No, pick your comment back up. Tweaking is fine but what people are asking for is to gut cds and damage, then what happens? people will never have the power needed to make a difference with it. I've seen a plethora of combinations that just put melee in it's place, and ive seen triangle builds go back and forth and that's fun. nerfing a whole playstyle? gunna drive even more people away.

You know what's not fun? Reading through all the balance suggestions and realizing why people are leaving.

[Jesse]

I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

I’ll grant you that. My idea of under and overperformance are based on a standard that hasn’t yet been established in this game, so I shouldn’t try to argue based on it. 

I do wonder what the standard for balance is, though. Sometimes it feels like people think that everything that makes itself worth investing in is overpowered.

[Arrow]

I’m actually going to side with Hated on this one. Maybe it isn’t that armed and unarmed are that good. Maybe other trees are just underperforming. Raw numbers don’t really mean anything in a vacuum, outside of the costs associated with investing in them, but the fact that armed abilities (might, as someone who doesn’t play it) actually feel worth it doesn’t mean that they’re overturned.

The balance philosophy in this game is far too punitive. People often go “fuck that guy” without realizing that maybe the things they use just aren’t up to par. But making people regret their choice to play something is just not the way to go. All it does is appeal to people who want revenge more than they want a good game.

i don't have a dog in this fight but i just wanted to say that, jesse, what you just said, that maybe those two trees aren't overperforming but the rest of the game is underperforming?
that's literally the definition of overperforming. what you just described is exactly what 'overperforming' means.

anyway, there's a few things in the game that are kind of crazy. melee is meant to be high risk high reward but at the moment its just.. high reward. oh no maybe i'll accidentally dash into a water beam.. good thing that dash is back up in 4 seconds alongside the rest of my tree hehe.

i don't have a huge problem with most of the trees, aside from one or two spells in a couple. melee in general, though, just feels.. oppressively strong. day one vampires strong.

nah 


ive been playing melee since day 1 and i like it's aesthetic, the damage is well balanced as is. cleave hits for 3k rarely crits for 4k with my 280 md. i can only get to 5k damage if i manage to ice homing or for them to walk into talons, which is a gamble on itself.

melee is strong yes, but aoes right now? they triple tick half your hp lmfao
the only time i saw astronomical numbers fighting melee is when they have +30 +40 pow/ap from hiddens and that's the only reason. 

fatal hits for 7k damage total including the bleed rn and that's with frostbite. i only hit it if i'm willing to take A) 5k damage from aoes, B) 6k damage from shadow claw, which is literally lower cd than cleave and deals 2k more damage, crits at 7k, which is rather absurd on it's own.

not to mention, there's no real counter for eviscrate, bang, pyro they're guaranteed to strike against melee of any caliber, hiddens or not.

so if you're willing to to go with the 'lmfao nerf melee' train from spires, you should look at other trees. Shadow claw is a great spell, that needs it's cd set to at least 12, 4 seconds with 150 agility is absurd. bang is 15 seconds, 12 with high agi, should be extended to at least 20-25. 

also, powersmash was only recently buffed, before it literally dealt doodoo damage and nobody took it and theres less people using it right now because it's expensive to grab. 

tl;dr - melee is literally balanced against most  of the builds right now, nerf the spells i mentioned above and sandstorm too for good measure, if you're willing to nerf melee.

Your numbers are all around wrong. Just throwing it out there.

Yeah, do you know why it felt expensive to grab? Because people have been dipping into the tree from the start of E3 to grab fatal/pstrikes/bladestyles and that's it. That's one of the problems of the tree.
AoEs atm deal 2k per tick. You're likely to hit two ticks. The cd on them? 40 seconds of cd. You could argue that the damage is too high, but the cd is there to explain the high damage. 

But just some food for thought: all the spells you're currently talking about are being used by melee players. It's the entire point. The tree does not force you to be some in-your-face fighter with no AoEs/utility for the entire fight. That'd be bad. That'd be terrible. That'd be spires melee. You have some of everything, with just far superior burst.

bro going melee and picking two trees is only possible at 200+ rpl, pstrikes wasn't even good before, i never used it personally until i had to so i can use powersmash.

melee alone isn't bursty at all, the cds are okay i also doubt aoes are 40 cd lmao, 30 seconds tops - to land any melee spell you need your target to be either A) slowed B) in gravity bomb, that's all

you can argue all you want about 'u can take everything u want' but when melee is half my spending for no 'good' or 'great' spells unless i pass the 100 rpp mark for hiddens to make it work, then it becomes a chore and not fun to play

that's my 2 cents, im not replying to this thread lmfao, its too absurd as is.

[Detective100]

This talk of buff VS nerf reminds of a certain video I've seen once (I'll link down below. It is about fighting games, but it is still a great video)

That said though, I agree that some trees could use a buff, instead of -just- focusing on nerfing (Not saying nerfing can't be a thing, sometimes abilities are indeed too much. Should only be done in moderation though)

It is easier after all to try and point at a specific thing and say nerf, than to try and look for something else and say buff. Even more so if what you think deserves a buff is something you have. Justified or not, there'll be people who'll shoot your suggestion down if you say it while having that tree/ability.
Heck, even if you don't, people might still argue against it, thinking you are biased towards a tree you either want in the future, or just like.

I can put my own opinion tht say, Yggdrassil needs a buff/rework, and people would still jump on me. (Long story short: The maximum heal you can get from a heal, can still be just around 400-500 more than a single crit hit with 12-13 spell power moves when they crit, and crit chance can easily go above 50%)

So, basically, don't push away the possibility for buffing certain trees/abilities, or heck, adding new abilities as well!



P.S: If we are talking dash punish: Cosmic dash can keep going even if they get hit by a knockback attack and hit you, no punish ;-;

p.p.s: The video.

[Prestige]

My numbers are all from the game. I check them before I post them here, obviously. So yes, AoEs (The big ones, that is. They're the "oppressive" ones after all) are 40 secs of cd.

Pstrikes was... Nerfed, recently. As in, it was even stronger before. I am not sure why it wasn't good in your opinion, but I assure you, it was.

I also proved why melee isn't half your spending (should be 50) unless you commit to the tree, and even then, you can easily go up to only 75 in costs.